PDC North American events 2014?

[jwarner]

Instead of pulling out completely the PDC should just sanction some events. No out of pocket expense. Sanction something like Rae Chesney, Las Vegas, Syracuse, Virginia Beach , Charlotte, Music City and USA classic. Most points gets the spot.

Would also help if the above tournament directors would go to best of 5.

[Zeyes]

Instead of pulling out completely the PDC should just sanction some events. No out of pocket expense. Sanction something like Rae Chesney, Las Vegas, Syracuse, Virginia Beach , Charlotte, Music City and USA classic. Most points gets the spot.

Would also help if the above tournament directors would go to best of 5.

Aren't some/most of those events already BDO-sanctioned? The problem for the PDC of late has been that the ADO is loyal to the BDO and by extension so are several of the local promoters (as far as I understand things anyway). So it's been slim pickings for the PDC, which is probably part of the reason they keep trying to establish their own events.

[cannibal]

In the last couple years more events have gone the BDO sanctioned way. But that sanctioning only applies to one event the singles 501 events held on one day. There is no reason that they couldn't hold another event sanctioned by the PDC. But there are also plenty of tournaments and leagues who run those tournaments the PDC could deal with. Given the fact that there is not enough interest for Pro style dart tournaments in the USA, working with established tournaments for one event a weekend would make the most sense and try to build a series that way. Going to a one off event to determine who the best player for a PDC WC spot certainly doesn't increase the odds of that selection being the best we have.

From what I have heard and this is unsubstantiated....the PDC money was supposed to cover 3 years of events, All that money was spent in 2 events, or at least at this point its all gone, hence one of the reason for a one off tournament for the WC spot.

Tomlinson did say in the dart talk interview that he felt that people were not showing up to PDC USA events because Darin Young was so far ahead in the oom. Again this statement is just more evidence that Mr Tomlinson doesn't have a clue about darters their abilities and the incentives for playing the events. It seems a lot of bad choices were made based on what I have heard. As for the NWDS and what happened there and the relationship with NACT/NAPDA it is far worse than just a few bad decisions.

[Zeyes]

In the last couple years more events have gone the BDO sanctioned way. But that sanctioning only applies to one event the singles 501 events held on one day. There is no reason that they couldn't hold another event sanctioned by the PDC. But there are also plenty of tournaments and leagues who run those tournaments the PDC could deal with. Given the fact that there is not enough interest for Pro style dart tournaments in the USA, working with established tournaments for one event a weekend would make the most sense and try to build a series that way.

Though the BDO example demonstrates that pitfalls of that - it's awfully difficult to supervise such a setup and you're always at the mercy of the various local organizers you're dealing with. Okay, they've been at Tomlinson's mercy , too, but at least that was only one guy, not half a dozen or more. It doesn't look to me that the PDC likes to do business that way. Hard to see a good way out of all that - a one-shot Worlds qualifier pretty much downgrades the US back to the level of places like Hong Kong and South Africa.

Tomlinson did say in the dart talk interview that he felt that people were not showing up to PDC USA events because Darin Young was so far ahead in the oom. Again this statement is just more evidence that Mr Tomlinson doesn't have a clue about darters their abilities and the incentives for playing the events.

He might even be correct that Young's dominance was detrimental, but yeah, that just shows that the World Championship carrot isn't nearly enough to sustain a circuit with $100 entry fees in the US. I wonder if the Australian model might work, with two events per weekend and roundrobin prelims to give everybody lots of games. (Ironically enough, except for the use of doubleheaders that's kind of what fotoman was trying to establish a couple of years ago, wasn't it? Died from lack of support both in manpower and finances, from what I can tell.)

[cannibal]

What should be a slap in the face to the American darters who aspire to the top level of the game, is I am sitting here watching 2 guys who came off the SDC tour playing in the German Darts Masters this weekend. Scandinavia, come on how popular is darts there, what are the numbers of the participants of that tour? Yet they seem to be making it work and the players are getting the chances to compete in PDC tour events on their merit.

I hope the PDC is looking outside of darts in the USA to find someone. I know they are out there, but not sure they are willing to take the risk for the reward that is as I see it a pipe dream and more than 10 years away, and that is darts on TV in the usa.

[el_ringo]

Sorry but I don't get why you feel the PDC should bend over backwards now to help American Darts.

I accept Canada should be treated separately as clumping Yank Land with it has the effect of diluting its own darts base , interest and involvement.

It does strike many similarities with the BDO and Ladies Darts.

If you look back over the years the PDC has attempted several large scale financial ventures and the LVDC for more than a few years all which have not had the effect of kick starting darts in America.
The players themselves really haven't support the efforts of the PDC in the past no really only have theirselves to blame.
For all the excuses under the sun it is plan and simple if a country such as Australia which has had significantly less PDC financial input can get more players to tournaments (& viewers on TV) than one the size & population of America then its plain that the level of interest will never be there for anything on a major grand scale.

Darts isn't the only sport in the world which cannot crack the American markets and those other sports such as cricket, rugby, Formula 1 etc don't seem to suffer to much.

[foggs3355]

In the last couple years more events have gone the BDO sanctioned way. But that sanctioning only applies to one event the singles 501 events held on one day. There is no reason that they couldn't hold another event sanctioned by the PDC. But there are also plenty of tournaments and leagues who run those tournaments the PDC could deal with. Given the fact that there is not enough interest for Pro style dart tournaments in the USA, working with established tournaments for one event a weekend would make the most sense and try to build a series that way.

Though the BDO example demonstrates that pitfalls of that - it's awfully difficult to supervise such a setup and you're always at the mercy of the various local organizers you're dealing with. Okay, they've been at Tomlinson's mercy , too, but at least that was only one guy, not half a dozen or more. It doesn't look to me that the PDC likes to do business that way. Hard to see a good way out of all that - a one-shot Worlds qualifier pretty much downgrades the US back to the level of places like Hong Kong and South Africa.

Tomlinson did say in the dart talk interview that he felt that people were not showing up to PDC USA events because Darin Young was so far ahead in the oom. Again this statement is just more evidence that Mr Tomlinson doesn't have a clue about darters their abilities and the incentives for playing the events.

He might even be correct that Young's dominance was detrimental, but yeah, that just shows that the World Championship carrot isn't nearly enough to sustain a circuit with $100 entry fees in the US. I wonder if the Australian model might work, with two events per weekend and roundrobin prelims to give everybody lots of games. (Ironically enough, except for the use of doubleheaders that's kind of what fotoman was trying to establish a couple of years ago, wasn't it? Died from lack of support both in manpower and finances, from what I can tell.)

i agree they should just try and have 4 - 5 double headers weekend the top ranked get in worlds but like down in auz have a tournament where the winner of it get to worlds as well to keep interest going then even if young wins a few of the events other players feel they still have have a chance to qualifier they will enter the last few events to find some fore before that last event

[Zeyes]

I already alluded to this in another thread a little while ago - I do think a major part of what's holding back darts in the US is the soft/steel split. Both are well-established, but alone it seems nearly impossible for either side to reach critical mass. (I don't think Dartslive is gonna succeed, either.) Australia and Scandinavia(+Denmark) share one characteristic with the US and Canada, and that's that the player density is rather low because they all cover such huge areas, but steel-tip in those two places doesn't have that type of major in-house competition to deal with.

[el_ringo]

I already alluded to this in another thread a little while ago - I do think a major part of what's holding back darts in the US is the soft/steel split. Both are well-established, but alone it seems nearly impossible for either side to reach critical mass. (I don't think Dartslive is gonna succeed, either.) Australia and Scandinavia(+Denmark) share one characteristic with the US and Canada, and that's that the player density is rather low because they all cover such huge areas, but steel-tip in those two places doesn't have that type of major in-house competition to deal with.

Do you not think the popularity of playing cricket of American darts also has an effect ?

[Zeyes]

Do you not think the popularity of playing cricket of American darts also has an effect ?

Probably, although that seems to be a bit of a chicken-and-egg issue - is cricket popular because casual darts-playing was there before competitive play, or is competitive darts struggling because of the popularity of cricket? Cannibal will know more, but my impression is that players who prefer cricket so much that they play hardly any 01 might as well be considered to be playing a different game altogether, so shouldn't even be included in any analysis of the potential of US darts. (Similar to the various versions of cue ball sports.)

But beyond that minority of players, I feel the soft/steel gap is more important...there's almost certainly a lot more player crossover between cricket and 01 than there is between soft and steel, at least among the players that matter here (those who are actually willing to pay $30+ entry fees for a tournament).

[The Jolly Man]

Do the PDC (or whoever they have in charge) even know the big darting areas in NA. Got the impression that some stops on the tour last year weren't in good darting locations.

Why they did not look at what is a reasonable and successful Aussie tour I don't know. I guess losing a WC spot didn't help. But why the big prize fund so early? The Aussies, Scandinavians etc don't offer that kind if money. Maybe they need to break the region down before looking at something nationally. But that needs loads of volunteers. Maybe start in a few core cities build a solid foundation and when people get passionate let them on board a bit like what has happened in Western Australia.

Scandinavia has a long heritage of Darts Finland was a top 3 or 4 nation in years gone by. Still the Scandinavian tour has been chopped and changed over its 3 year existence

[The Jolly Man]

I already alluded to this in another thread a little while ago - I do think a major part of what's holding back darts in the US is the soft/steel split. Both are well-established, but alone it seems nearly impossible for either side to reach critical mass. (I don't think Dartslive is gonna succeed, either.) Australia and Scandinavia(+Denmark) share one characteristic with the US and Canada, and that's that the player density is rather low because they all cover such huge areas, but steel-tip in those two places doesn't have that type of major in-house competition to deal with.

Do you not think the popularity of playing cricket of American darts also has an effect ?

But why can't this be used as a positive and used in darts existence in NA. It will attract players and won't stop players from turning up for the 501. Even bring back the Cricket World Champs

[cannibal]

Sorry but I don't get why you feel the PDC should bend over backwards now to help American Darts.

I accept Canada should be treated separately as clumping Yank Land with it has the effect of diluting its own darts base , interest and involvement.

Personally I don't think they should bend over backwards, and actually even tho I am an American I think the PDC should focus on Canada with a tour let the Americans travel there if they want to and do a one off tournament in America for a spot. So this will be 2 spots for the WC. I think I have said many times America is not even close to ready to have a Pro style tour. But it is obvious that the PDC and Hearn feel the market is important been pumping money into it with no results to show for it for over 8 years now. Personally if I was consulting for them I would have told them to leave the market alone after the PDC festival of darts in vegas. I have a feeling that Hearn is giving to much of his ear to certain people over here that just to be honest are fools. Their philosophy is to grow the sport from the top level down, i.e. a pro tour in American with shed loads of money is going to make everyone want to play and make them better and create fans, i.e the magic beans formula.

[Zeyes]

I have a feeling that Hearn is giving to much of his ear to certain people over here that just to be honest are fools. Their philosophy is to grow the sport from the top level down, i.e. a pro tour in American with shed loads of money is going to make everyone want to play and make them better and create fans, i.e the magic beans formula.

The question is, is there a bottom-up alternative that doesn't require nuking the ADO out of existence first? I mean, as has been suggested earlier in the thread there's always the possibility of the PDC going the BDO way and simply sanctioning other people's tournaments for ranking points, but would that really do anything for the PDC as long as many of those tournaments are still stuck playing ADO-favoured best of 3s and 5s?

[The Jolly Man]

I have a feeling that Hearn is giving to much of his ear to certain people over here that just to be honest are fools. Their philosophy is to grow the sport from the top level down, i.e. a pro tour in American with shed loads of money is going to make everyone want to play and make them better and create fans, i.e the magic beans formula.

The question is, is there a bottom-up alternative that doesn't require nuking the ADO out of existence first? I mean, as has been suggested earlier in the thread there's always the possibility of the PDC going the BDO way and simply sanctioning other people's tournaments for ranking points, but would that really do anything for the PDC as long as many of those tournaments are still stuck playing ADO-favoured best of 3s and 5s?

Werent the Pro Tour event the PDC had in NA all those years back originally existing events that the PDC sanctioned, and in the end struggled. If the WDF were to step up and run the whole thing on there side of the divide they have a flipping good basis in NA however i am guessing it is 20+ different organisers/promoters involved rather than just a few organisisng good quality events.

I just dont get why NA didnt look at Australia/DPA and go lets replicate that.

[spaceman70]

I have a feeling that Hearn is giving to much of his ear to certain people over here that just to be honest are fools. Their philosophy is to grow the sport from the top level down, i.e. a pro tour in American with shed loads of money is going to make everyone want to play and make them better and create fans, i.e the magic beans formula.

The question is, is there a bottom-up alternative that doesn't require nuking the ADO out of existence first? I mean, as has been suggested earlier in the thread there's always the possibility of the PDC going the BDO way and simply sanctioning other people's tournaments for ranking points, but would that really do anything for the PDC as long as many of those tournaments are still stuck playing ADO-favoured best of 3s and 5s?

Werent the Pro Tour event the PDC had in NA all those years back originally existing events that the PDC sanctioned, and in the end struggled. If the WDF were to step up and run the whole thing on there side of the divide they have a flipping good basis in NA however i am guessing it is 20+ different organisers/promoters involved rather than just a few organisisng good quality events.

I just dont get why NA didnt look at Australia/DPA and go lets replicate that.

Chicago and the like if I remember correctly?

I may be wrong here, but isn't the ADO chief part of the WDF? I used to listen to the very informative dartsaroundtheworld or something like that for info on NA and Asia. Little Richard used to do a slot in the early hours.

[Zeyes]

If the WDF were to step up and run the whole thing on there side of the divide they have a flipping good basis in NA however i am guessing it is 20+ different organisers/promoters involved rather than just a few organisisng good quality events.

I just dont get why NA didnt look at Australia/DPA and go lets replicate that.

I suspect the bolded part is also where the PDC struggles. They'll need local promoters to do the Aussie approach, and they probably don't have them available, almost everybody who's somebody in US darts is already running events under the ADO/WDF/BDO umbrella. People like the Bullseye News guy they contracted with the last couple of years might have the connections to do tournaments in several locations, but (as cannibal says) that's no good if he doesn't understand what works and what doesn't.

Australia also has one big advantage: very few population centers. If you have one committed promoter each in Sydney, Perth, Melbourne and Brisbane, you've got more than half the country's population covered just with those cities' metro areas, let alone their catchment areas further out.

[cannibal]

Seriously nuking the ADO out of existence would be a first step in the right direction. That org is completely inept, doesn't care or do anything for the grass roots. It is interesting there have been more than a dozen conversations on fb and forums about what ADO does or what the benefits of being a member are. End of all those discussions basically comes down to zilch, nada, zero, nothing. In fact I would go so far to say that the ADO is actually a big factor in the stagnation of darts in the USA, mainly due to the lack of any type of leadership, proper sanctioning, lack of goals, and lack of plans.

The DPA was the e.g. they should be following here, problem is I don't think anyone here knows what the DPA is and even if they did the prevailing attitude is "well we are Americans and we do things our own way" This was the mantra for why the first round of PDC PC in NA failed or was little to no interest by the natives. They would prefer to play best of 3 or 5 in a open random draw.

some of the local tourney directors are probably the only competent people in darts, there are succesfull and well run tourneys the good thing is those people do one thing they do it well and for the most part stay out of the politics of darts.

Buddy Bartletta or whatever his name is was ADO president several years back, he is or was involved in teh WDF after his involvment in the ADO.

Not sure that cricket is the problem, after all its tiny arrows thrown at targets, he who does that with the most accuracy wins in both cricket and 501. I think the soft tip steel tip split is the greater problem by far for raising the standard as well as the growth of steel.

[Zeyes]

By the way...

http://www.adodarts.com/bdo-american-re ... ty-update/


BDO American Region Player Eligibility Update
April 17, 2014

Below is an email the ADO received shortly after the conclusion of the BDO board meeting on April 16, 2014:

At the board meeting today the American situation was discussed at length. The conclusion of the board was that American players should be allowed to play within our system from the date that Q School finished which was Monday 20th January 2014 so any points earned from this date forward would be able to count in your regional table. This would mean that the American players have been treated exactly the same as any other player in Europe. It would also allow your players to take part in the Winmau World Masters if they qualify.

So any points earned from the Fleetwood Memorial Las Vegas Open onwards will be now be included in the USA regional table.

[cannibal]

That little bit of info from the BDO to the ADO certainly is welcomed news, and I think a step in the right direction for both the BDO and the players especially in America. Changes the incentives for the top players here now to attempt to qualify for Lakeside and Masters. I would expect Butler to be at the Masters and a very good shot at making Lakeside. Bases on his wife's fb post he is seriously considering and probably already decided the BDO route is the way to go for the near future. I believe Butler attends most of those ranking tournaments anyways as they tend to be the largest tournaments held in the states.

So eligibility rule will only come into effect when they decide to hold the North American PDC WC qualifying event. Who knows when that will be but I am guessing not till the last possible date they can do it. Which would seem to me to make the most sense as this way Lakeside spots will be determined and Masters will be over, thereby negating eligibility rules for this year. With no incentive other than PDC WC and no clear picture on the future of PDC NA tour I would think that the field for any qualifier would be pretty small as participation would then prevent participation in the following Masters and Lakeside 2016