PDC North American events 2014?

[cannibal]

What are the rumors about this on that side of the pond? I heard Tomlinson in an interview on dart talk and sounds like a bit of a mess to me, proposals and negotiating still going on for 2014. Not sure Tomlinson is man for the job as he can't even get his magazine published due to lack of funds.

[devosteve]

Any more details there cannibal (my cup winning friend)?

Are you saying these may not happen?

[cannibal]

Mr Tomlinson seems to be of the opinion that something is going to happen it is just a matter of what the format is going to be, and it does seem that the whole 2 year NAOOM thing is done, as Darin has pretty much locked it up again. Makes no sense to me he has shown he is consistently the best we have to offer why punish him for that as well as jumping thru the hoops you asked him to to begin with??



personally I think all this should have been in place before the start of 2014, you could have easily had a internet conference with all the interested parties via skype, google etc...

[Zeyes]

I didn't pay close attention last year, but - the $100 entry fee / $10k prize money model hasn't really worked out, has it? It's understandable that nobody wants to take a huge financial hit on the whole thing, but in relation to the prize money the entry fees were just about double what they are on the Challenge Tour.

[jwarner]

Whole thing does seem a bit of a mess as we are in the middle of March and still no schedule.

[cannibal]

Part of the problem is you have the same tired old dinosaurs doing things the same way they have been doing it and it hasn't work for a long time. Zeyes hits on one important factor the risk to reward ratio isn't that good, so lower the entry fees which will increase the turn out some. Or you make the events in the format of the GSOD with round robin to knockout. Gives more darts for the buck, that is what the vast majority of players want and they need to progress their game. Lets be realistic only 4 people in North America have a chance of even being competitive in the PDC WC, the rest are there to gain experience and push themselves to improve and recreation. So if that is the case make it more valuable for them by providing more darts. Look at the participation numbers of the NWDS events vs the American PDC events, only 1 came close in participation numbers that was the one in AC NJ. Chicago and Cali I believe had less than 50 players.

The events in Canada attendance was fine so leave those alone, in fact if I was Hearn I would get rid of the Chicago event and add one in Canada. If I was Hearn I would also tell Tomlinson your locations have to be in the area of the largest darting population, so that one in Cali probably has to stay but that goes to a NWDS style event that is seeded and formatted the same way as the GSOD. Move the AC event to Philly much easier access for travel by car or plane. If you want the attraction of Casino then cut a deal with one of them in Philly and do it there. That leaves places like Ohio, Boston, North Carolina, Nashville, Texas, and a few other hotbed of darts I have left out. You have to face the fact that the east coast is by far the center of darts in USA and cater to it more till darts grows more. I would also request that NWDS gets another PDC event so that gives them 4 for the year.

The other thing Hearn should do is demand that any proposal sets the next year dates and venues by the end of October and must be announced with full details before the end of 2014. The proposal also must make an agreement that NAPDA must under go a 1 year search to find and add an additional board member to bring someone from outside darts and the darting industry that has experience in pro or semi pro or college sports in the area of promotions, sport business or board involvement on a sports national governing body. That position must be filled within 2 years. The other thing I would stipulate is NAPDA must also expand the board to have 2 active players as representatives on the board, plus 1 spot from PDC/PDPA who they will appoint. This kind of move will ensure that the dinosaurs are at least getting some kind of advice and perspective outside there little group.

for these demands Hearn should agree that if the events are sustained for 3 years and show growth, then a move will be made to split North America into 2 regions USA and Canada, each will recieve 1 spot for the WC, and the GSOD in 4 years.

I thought that Hearn had initially went into this 2 years ago with the hope that this would become a self sustaining tour in North America. I think that in the last 2 years they have not gotten closer to that in fact I think they have moved further away. The PDC has to take a more active roll in ensuring that any investment they make is not being pissed away.

[Zeyes]

Thanks for adding some detail to what's going on. I agree that playing round-robin prelims of some type is probably the way to go...it's worked reasonably well in Australia, where they have the same issues with large travel distances (and even smaller target audiences).

Not that it helps the PDC any, but Dartslive's new America Tour also seemed to be quite the disaster last year, going from 98 and 112 players at the first two events to just 49 and 66 at the other two. Not that encouraging that the market for single-elimination $100 entry fee tournaments isn't any larger on the soft-tip side either. They're back for another attempt, too, I see... (Probably not a coincidence: Despite expanding from 4 to 6 events, one of last year's locations hasn't returned. It's the one with the 49 participants.)

Edit: I see Dartslive have reduced the prize money compared to last year.

[Zeyes]

Out of curiosity, has anybody ever tried running high-profile combined soft and steel events in the US?

[cannibal]

To my knowledge no, but some of the NWDS events did have a soft tip warm event the friday before the tournament but would not class that as high profile

[Zeyes]

Thanks, that's what I suspected. I do start to wonder if a full-scale PDC/Dartslive joint venture might be the only way to "crack" the US market for both companies. Warm-ups of both types on Friday, soft main event on Saturday with steel side events, steel main event on Sunday with soft side events, something like that. At the very least it would be a boon to most of the upper-tier players who are active on both sides, with their travel funds getting them to more high-profile tournaments. Right now it seems that the soft/steel divide is fragmenting the market in such a way that neither side really gets a lot out of it, at least never in the long term.

[cannibal]

I would argue that joint venture is unlikely for the single reason that dartslive do not need the PDC to get into North America. Soft tip pays better for the amateur and I believe they spread the money around more than steel does in their payouts. Ok they pay more to play, but it is in small increments via coin drop, and even now some companies are getting away from coin drop tournaments. Add to that the ability to compete in events with those at your level, or in a handicap comp, creates more incentive for a larger number.

The mentality of steel tip tournament directors and top players is basically exemplified in Jay Tomlinson's own words as he completely mystified states "I don't understand why players don't want to pay money to play the best??" This is the thinking of the dinosaurs...you should be thankful for the privilege to play me because I have so much to teach you and I went thru the school of hard knocks and you should to. And this is why no one is showing up, they just are sick of donating money and getting nothing for it, you don't learn anything in the best of 3, before you even realize which way the board is your going home 2-0. Lots of experience to be obtained by shooting 2 legs. There is so many other things people can be spending their time doing for entertainment and pleasure. As much as I dislike soft tip at least they understand that to attract people you need to give people a real opportunity at advancing and playing darts that is why they came to the tournament.

[The Jolly Man]

I would argue that joint venture is unlikely for the single reason that dartslive do not need the PDC to get into North America. Soft tip pays better for the amateur and I believe they spread the money around more than steel does in their payouts. Ok they pay more to play, but it is in small increments via coin drop, and even now some companies are getting away from coin drop tournaments. Add to that the ability to compete in events with those at your level, or in a handicap comp, creates more incentive for a larger number.

The mentality of steel tip tournament directors and top players is basically exemplified in Jay Tomlinson's own words as he completely mystified states "I don't understand why players don't want to pay money to play the best??" This is the thinking of the dinosaurs...you should be thankful for the privilege to play me because I have so much to teach you and I went thru the school of hard knocks and you should to. And this is why no one is showing up, they just are sick of donating money and getting nothing for it, you don't learn anything in the best of 3, before you even realize which way the board is your going home 2-0. Lots of experience to be obtained by shooting 2 legs. There is so many other things people can be spending their time doing for entertainment and pleasure. As much as I dislike soft tip at least they understand that to attract people you need to give people a real opportunity at advancing and playing darts that is why they came to the tournament.

But PDC and Dartslive are in a relationship already.

[cannibal]

Yes they are Jolly, but imho that is because to get into the UK they need the understanding and experience and exposure mainly that the PDC can provide them. And to be honest not quite sure that it is a joint venture so much as advertising partners. This particular strategy of "Joint ventures" to crack new markets especially when there is some kind of cultural barrier that needs to be dealt with has long been employed very succesfully by companies from the far east. In america we already have a culture of soft tip darts you do not in the UK

[Zeyes]

Soft tip pays better for the amateur and I believe they spread the money around more than steel does in their payouts.

Only by having more side events. The payouts in Dartslive's main events are notoriously top-heavy anywhere they've been active (Hong Kong, Japan, USA). Or I should probably say, they're notoriously top-heavy compared to PDC events - I have no idea how it stacks up to "normal" steel events in the States. Given the similarities between the ADO and the BDO, I suppose they also like 'em top-heavy.

The mentality of steel tip tournament directors and top players is basically exemplified in Jay Tomlinson's own words as he completely mystified states "I don't understand why players don't want to pay money to play the best??" This is the thinking of the dinosaurs...you should be thankful for the privilege to play me because I have so much to teach you and I went thru the school of hard knocks and you should to. And this is why no one is showing up, they just are sick of donating money and getting nothing for it, you don't learn anything in the best of 3, before you even realize which way the board is your going home 2-0. Lots of experience to be obtained by shooting 2 legs. There is so many other things people can be spending their time doing for entertainment and pleasure. As much as I dislike soft tip at least they understand that to attract people you need to give people a real opportunity at advancing and playing darts that is why they came to the tournament.

I completely agree; they can't expect pro-style tournaments to be successful if they don't have enough players who are looking for that. But even on the soft-tip side it looks like the overall experience must be good for it to attract players:

Dartslive 2013 USA Open: attractive location (Las Vegas), lots and lots of side events -> full field of 256 players for the $70 / $30,000 main event

Dartslive 2013 America's Tour: pretty random locations, only some side events -> didn't get a full field of 128 players to any of their four $100 / $20,000 main events, with two being under 70 players

Entries for their first 2014 tour event do look good again, but that didn't stop things from falling apart later in the year last time. Dartslive doesn't need the PDC for big one-off events, but I feel if they want to establish a full pro-style tour that's successful in the long run, there's no way past some soft/steel cooperation. The market just isn't big enough for two tours with big entry fees, IMO, so I suspect the only alternative would be the PDC giving up on the US altogether again. Joint weekends with each running a $50 / $15,000 main event plus lots of side events, what's not to like?

[The Jolly Man]

Does anyone think the focus of darts in north America is in the wrong place. Everyone talks about the USA but surely Canada should be. They have had more success in general on the PDC tour, in recent years, events always seem well attended. Players who want to come to Europe to play etc.

[The Jolly Man]

Thanks, that's what I suspected. I do start to wonder if a full-scale PDC/Dartslive joint venture might be the only way to "crack" the US market for both companies. Warm-ups of both types on Friday, soft main event on Saturday with steel side events, steel main event on Sunday with soft side events, something like that. At the very least it would be a boon to most of the upper-tier players who are active on both sides, with their travel funds getting them to more high-profile tournaments. Right now it seems that the soft/steel divide is fragmenting the market in such a way that neither side really gets a lot out of it, at least never in the long term.

What about likewise for crack at the Asian market. A Soft Tip event and a Steel tip at all the Asian stops.

I guess the only problem is the need to have two lots of boards set up.

[Texas ColdShot]

Does anyone think the focus of darts in north America is in the wrong place. Everyone talks about the USA but surely Canada should be. They have had more success in general on the PDC tour, in recent years, events always seem well attended. Players who want to come to Europe to play etc.

I'm not sure what focus on USA darts you're talking about, but you may be right.
A once strong interest in the PDC within the USA dart community has faded significantly the last couple of years. Currently, any desire to pursue getting involved with the PDC system exists only among a shrinking group within the community. Where it does exist, the current level of intensity in that desire is difficult to quantify.
As long as the PDC continues to offer one of our players the opportunity to fill a spot at Ally Pally in December, I'm sure there will always be players here interested in being the guy that goes over to play.
We certainly appreciate that spot the PDC offers.
However, with all due respect, the USA dart community is not going to live or die based on whether or not one of our players is offered an opportunity to play in that one tournament.

There are tens of thousands of people who play darts in the USA. There are ample opportunities here to more than satisfy the interests of USA dart players and quench our thirst for playing the game we love.
Our interest in the PDC has declined in recent years but, in fairness, the PDC's interest in USA darts has also declined from what it was. Things just didn't work out how either of us would have liked.
Darts in the USA doesn't need the PDC and will continue to be fine without the PDC.
The PDC doesn't need USA dart players and will continue to be fine without USA dart players.

[foggs3355]

the problem is having only 1 pave up for grabs young is there best player they should make 2 players and do same as in auz at end of season have an event where winner get to world pro like US Open it will keep the interest going right to the end as now the top spot is already decided half way thru

[The Jolly Man]

Whats interesting is that none of the USA guys here have mentioned the North America Darts Championships that are on this weekend, being organised by the PDC side.

T32
Darin Young 6 - 3 Kevin Killian
Mike Smith 1 - 6 DJ Sayre
Bob Sinnaeve vs Gene Walts
Steve Panuncialman vs Scott Meeks
Shaun Narain 6 - 3 Joe DaVanti
Eric Gregory 6 - 3 Andrew VanKoeverdan
Bernie Miller 6 - 0 - Bob Hudzik
Joe Chaney 6-0 Richard Cuerrier
Larry Butler 6 - 3 Joe Reinert
Terry Hayhurst 6- 1 Phillip Jose
Gary Mawson 6 - 2 Mike Holt
Ron Miller 6 - 4 David Flowers
Dan Olson 6 - 0 Steve Jordon
Steve Warnock 6 - 3 Jack Robinson
Jim Long 6 - 1 Jeff Dodson
Gordon Dixon 6 - 1 Ron Schmidt

Mens T16
Darin Young 6 - 1 DJ Sayre
Sinnaeve vs Steve Panuncialman
Sharun Narain 2 - 6 Eric Gregory
Bernie Miller 6 - 2 Joe Chaney
Larry Butler 6 - 4Terry Hayhurst
Gary Mawson 6 - 3 Ron Miller
Dan Olson 4 - 6 Steve Warnock
Jim Long 6 - 1 Gordon Dixon

Men's T8
Darin Young vs Sinnaeve
Eric Gregory 4 - 6 Bernie Miller
Larry Butler 1 - 6 Gary Mawson
Steve Warnock 5 - 6 Jim Long

Men's Semi Finals
Young/Sinnaeve vs Bernie Miller
Gary Mawson vs Jim Long

http://new.livestream.com/accounts/1611319

[cannibal]

From what little information I have been able to gather, it does appear that there will be no NA PDC tour this year. No surprise I guess given the long silence from the organizers and his associates. So the expansion to 8 tournaments in the 3rd year as announced by the PDC won't happen.
http://www.pdc.tv/north-american-tour/a ... r-launched

on the issue of NWDS and its future their CFO stated the following on facebook:
"As of now, there are no firm plans to offer another NWDS event. If we can find a way to make the model profitable - or at least not a massive loss - we'll certainly consider putting on another NWDS or NWDS-style event. Believe it or not, we loved them as much as you guys, but they did hit us in the wallet pretty hard. Especially NOLA. But every experience is a learning experience."

Rumor has it that the NA place in the PDC WC will be determined by a single tournament, no info on dates or location as of yet.

So it seems the PDC threw more money away at NA....again. Back to square 1 in attempts to establish a viable pro tour in NA, which just isn't ready for Pro darts anyway. Will be interesting to see what the PDC next move will be in NA, the big question is are they ready to concede defeat? and will they continue to deal with the same group that has pissed their 3 years worth of money away in less than 2 years?

I disagree with Tex post on the issue of PDC waning interest in NA darts. The upside potential is just to great not to be interested in the NA market, I think it is a matter of who the PDC is dealing with in NA and the PDC not really having an idea of how to crack the market. I do think they probably are sick of putting money into the American market especially and not having anything to show for it. Not sure they are getting great return from the Canadian market but at least there seems to be more interest there as participation in events has been much higher there and a few from Canada have participated in Q school and on the PDC tour in the last 3 years.