limits to players ability!!

[callataxi]

i keep hearing from phil taylor and rod harrington about almost all the other players needing to show

more dedication to challenge phil and thereby claim titles etc.

it seems to be overlooked that maybe almost all the current crop are literally maxing out on their ability

and guys liike barney,wade, whitlock, anderson, painter,lloyd etc etc etc are throwing consistently 95-103averages

which in by gone eras would be marvelled at and their dedication would ceratinly never have be questioned.

guys like bristow,lowe,wilson who averaged mainly in the 90s and scooped a lot of the titles were regarded

as geniuses and yet im sure if phil was plonked in their era and played to his current ability, they would have barely won a

title just like the current crop. of course im sure bristow,lowe,wilson would have raised their game but i feel

pretty confident in saying that i doubt they had much more in their personal locker to reach what phil can score

on a yearly basis. so would these legends dedication been questioned if they hadnt got a world title between them

despite shooting 100 averages, because phil had scooped the lot? i dont think so!!

lets just finally accept that just like most sports, competitors may just have a ceiling of abiltiy and catching

a genius like phil may just not be possible for anyone.

[nikkiboy]

Good post and you are correct, you can put as much practice in as you like but you also have to have the mental tuffness and killer instinct to succeed.

Players will absolutely hit a ceiling for their ability and no amount of practice or bacardi will help them get above that and if that ceiling is below Taylor then sorry but he will beat them most times.

As for the legends, I think Anderson, Deller, Lowe, Wilson and of course Bristow & Evans would all have had the ability to raise their games accordingly and pressurise Taylor. In a way it is a shame that Taylor emerged just as these guys were starting to fade a little as some of the matches would have been out of this world.

[boommoob2]

I think a few people like Chris Mason have said it's garbage that Taylor practices more than alot of the other players it's just mind games.

[Kirk Bevins]

I don't really have any evidence to back up this claim but I don't think there's such thing as a "ceiling for one's ability". If someone can throw a 180 then with practice you can train your brain and arm to do the same thing again and again until eventually you will hit back to back 180s. Continue this on and you'll train your throwing arm to be more consistent. Barney can quite clearly hit several 9 darters, so why does he open up the next leg with a 60? He is quite capable of opening the next leg 180 (I believe) and thus there is no ceiling as mentioned.

Just a thought.

[callataxi]

I don't really have any evidence to back up this claim but I don't think there's such thing as a "ceiling for one's ability". If someone can throw a 180 then with practice you can train your brain and arm to do the same thing again and again until eventually you will hit back to back 180s. Continue this on and you'll train your throwing arm to be more consistent. Barney can quite clearly hit several 9 darters, so why does he open up the next leg with a 60? He is quite capable of opening the next leg 180 (I believe) and thus there is no ceiling as mentioned.

Just a thought.

if it was that simple to just play non stop till u never missed a treble then im isure it would have been done

by now. as in any sport you care to mention, perfection is impossible.

its just a case of who can get nearest to perfection on the most consistent basis.

basically phils nearest challengers can score and finish as heavy as him from time to time, but they

cant keep going to that extreme level that phil produces match in match out.

no amount of dedication is going to get them to that level.

lets just lay of these challengers and except that they are throwing incredible darts themselves

but there is very little more that they can find to up their game.

of course there will always be examples of players who probably could do better with more

practice/dedication.

however in my opinion guys like whitlock,king,painter,lloyd,hamilton are currrently playing to

their max and should not be branded lazy because they arent hitting 110 averages week in week out.

[Kirk Bevins]

I disagree callataxi. I think if people put the effort in they can continue to improve with no definite ceiling. Nobody said it was "simple" as you described in your first sentence. I've practised Countdown with dedication over several years and it's got me to the top of the game, getting the first ever televised max game and the most max games online. Even when I got back to back max games in practice and then a 12/15 maxer, I never think I'm at the peak of my ability, I always think I can go better. Why did I miss those 3 maxes? I knew DETRITAL so why did I miss it ...I'll try to spot it as TRAILED+T in future etc. Sorry for moving away from darts in this example but it's just something I've experienced first hand and I think if you practise well you can get as good as you want to be. Know your mistakes, learn from them and improve.

[callataxi]

I disagree callataxi. I think if people put the effort in they can continue to improve with no definite ceiling. Nobody said it was "simple" as you described in your first sentence. I've practised Countdown with dedication over several years and it's got me to the top of the game, getting the first ever televised max game and the most max games online. Even when I got back to back max games in practice and then a 12/15 maxer, I never think I'm at the peak of my ability, I always think I can go better. Why did I miss those 3 maxes? I knew DETRITAL so why did I miss it ...I'll try to spot it as TRAILED+T in future etc. Sorry for moving away from darts in this example but it's just something I've experienced first hand and I think if you practise well you can get as good as you want to be. Know your mistakes, learn from them and improve.

but you will eventually like in most things get where you cant improve anymore.

of course when you first start doing something there is bundles of room for improvement, but after 20 years of

doing something it is very likely 99% of people wont get any better.

if andy murray never wins a grand slam, are we going to put it down to lack of dedication?

because this guy trains massively hard, but maybe he just doesnt have the weight of shot or mental strength

to overcome federer, nadal etc. i dont think he will be classed by tennis commentators as lazy

and not putting in enough practice.

[Kirk Bevins]

Sure, it gets harder to improve, but people still improve. I'm getting better and better all the time (although admittedly I'm not putting in the hours I did when training for TV) so I'm not sure why darts players can't get better all the time. It's not a case of just putting 8 hours a day on the practice board - it's a case of thinking "right, where is my arm, what does it feel like, when do I release..." etc. I'm not one to preach on how to get better at darts as I'm not that good myself but I believe there is always room for improvement as nobody is perfect and perfection is the ultimate ceiling.

[and the Iron Fist]

and guys liike barney,wade, whitlock, anderson, painter,lloyd etc etc etc are throwing consistently 95-103averages

Anderson, Painter and Lloyd do not consistently average anything like 95 - 103 averages. For Anderson that is his peak game, not his typical game. He can just as easilly average in the 80s or low 90s, as we saw at the Matchplay. For Painter and Lloyd a 100+ average is very rare and both will normally average in the low 90s and could potentially drop as low as 84ish.

Barney, Wade and Whitlock certainly do have the ability to average 95 - 103 game on game when they're on form but it's far from a guarantee that they will be. If taylor can be consistent enough to never drop below a certain level why can't those guys? I'm not saying it's easy, far from it, but how can they be maxing out their ability if they have peaks that they can't consistently get close to?

A one-off big average can be a fluke or a player playing the game of his life but if they can do it 50% of the time then why can't they up that to 60% or 70%? That's all Harrington and co are suggesting, not that thye could all be Phil Taylor. These players have the potential to be more consistent than they are but they're either unwilling to work on doing it, in a few cases, or more likely need guidance as to how to do it. I'm sure most players want to practce, want to improve but do they know how to do it constructively?

It's about finding your best game more often than your worst game - how many players do that? Too few, especially on TV. And when that is not happening it's perfectly reasonable for someone to ask you: why not?

[Kirk Bevins]

and guys liike barney,wade, whitlock, anderson, painter,lloyd etc etc etc are throwing consistently 95-103averages

Anderson, Painter and Lloyd do not consistently average anything like 95 - 103 averages. For Anderson that is his peak game, not his typical game. He can just as easilly average in the 80s or low 90s, as we saw at the Matchplay. For Painter and Lloyd a 100+ average is very rare and both will normally average in the low 90s and could potentially drop as low as 84ish.

Barney, Wade and Whitlock certainly do have the ability to average 95 - 103 game on game when they're on form but it's far from a guarantee that they will be. If taylor can be consistent enough to never drop below a certain level why can't those guys? I'm not saying it's easy, far from it, but how can they be maxing out their ability if they have peaks that they can't consistently get close to?

A one-off big average can be a fluke or a player playing the game of his life but if they can do it 50% of the time then why can't they up that to 60% or 70%? That's all Harrington and co are suggesting, not that thye could all be Phil Taylor. These players have the potential to be more consistent than they are but they're either unwilling to work on doing it, in a few cases, or more likely need guidance as to how to do it. I'm sure most players want to practce, want to improve but do they know how to do it constructively?

It's about finding your best game more often than your worst game - how many players do that? Too few, especially on TV. And when that is not happening it's perfectly reasonable for someone to ask you: why not?

Good post.

[Booji Boy]

and guys liike barney,wade, whitlock, anderson, painter,lloyd etc etc etc are throwing consistently 95-103averages

Anderson, Painter and Lloyd do not consistently average anything like 95 - 103 averages. For Anderson that is his peak game, not his typical game. He can just as easilly average in the 80s or low 90s, as we saw at the Matchplay. For Painter and Lloyd a 100+ average is very rare and both will normally average in the low 90s and could potentially drop as low as 84ish.

Barney, Wade and Whitlock certainly do have the ability to average 95 - 103 game on game when they're on form but it's far from a guarantee that they will be. If taylor can be consistent enough to never drop below a certain level why can't those guys? I'm not saying it's easy, far from it, but how can they be maxing out their ability if they have peaks that they can't consistently get close to?

A one-off big average can be a fluke or a player playing the game of his life but if they can do it 50% of the time then why can't they up that to 60% or 70%? That's all Harrington and co are suggesting, not that thye could all be Phil Taylor. These players have the potential to be more consistent than they are but they're either unwilling to work on doing it, in a few cases, or more likely need guidance as to how to do it. I'm sure most players want to practce, want to improve but do they know how to do it constructively?

It's about finding your best game more often than your worst game - how many players do that? Too few, especially on TV. And when that is not happening it's perfectly reasonable for someone to ask you: why not?

Gary Anderson is third on the list behind PT and RVB for tv averages above 105. So that does not tie in with what your saying. I also think his overall tv average for this year is in the mid 90,s.

[and the Iron Fist]

and guys liike barney,wade, whitlock, anderson, painter,lloyd etc etc etc are throwing consistently 95-103averages

Anderson, Painter and Lloyd do not consistently average anything like 95 - 103 averages. For Anderson that is his peak game, not his typical game. He can just as easilly average in the 80s or low 90s, as we saw at the Matchplay. For Painter and Lloyd a 100+ average is very rare and both will normally average in the low 90s and could potentially drop as low as 84ish.

Barney, Wade and Whitlock certainly do have the ability to average 95 - 103 game on game when they're on form but it's far from a guarantee that they will be. If taylor can be consistent enough to never drop below a certain level why can't those guys? I'm not saying it's easy, far from it, but how can they be maxing out their ability if they have peaks that they can't consistently get close to?

A one-off big average can be a fluke or a player playing the game of his life but if they can do it 50% of the time then why can't they up that to 60% or 70%? That's all Harrington and co are suggesting, not that thye could all be Phil Taylor. These players have the potential to be more consistent than they are but they're either unwilling to work on doing it, in a few cases, or more likely need guidance as to how to do it. I'm sure most players want to practce, want to improve but do they know how to do it constructively?

It's about finding your best game more often than your worst game - how many players do that? Too few, especially on TV. And when that is not happening it's perfectly reasonable for someone to ask you: why not?

Gary Anderson is third on the list behind PT and RVB for tv averages above 105. So that does not tie in with what your saying. I also think his overall tv average for this year is in the mid 90,s.

Yes, so why can't he average that more consistantly? This is what i'm saying. He CAN average 105 but more often he averages in the low 90s. He's certainly not maxing out his game. Same with the other players mentioned.

[callataxi]

when i listed the players, wade,whitlock,barney,anderson,painter and lloyd, i listed an approx average

of what these sort of guys regularly do. of course the top end of that scale around the 100 mark, im talking about the 1st

4 on that list. we rarely get to see the averages on the pro tour, but im pretty convinced that andersons form over

the past year means he must be shooting around the 100 mark most matches. certainly wade,whitlock and barney are in

that ball park. granted painter and lloyd are probably nearer 90 avg men, but i could have listed many others in the top 30

and they are all around the 90 mark.

i just dont hear the same discussions in other sport if players are not winning titles thats its through lack of dedication.

we accept that their is a ladder of ability in most sports and most competitors reach their ceiling.

[and the Iron Fist]

i just dont hear the same discussions in other sport if players are not winning titles thats its through lack of dedication.

we accept that their is a ladder of ability in most sports and most competitors reach their ceiling.

Maybe in most sports there is greater dedication from the majority of players and the majority of players are nearer their maximum potential. But in darts, traditionally, there hasn't been enough money there for many players to become truly proffesional and so they were just not able to dedicate themselves enough (as well as the money you can possibly add the social, drinking culture associated with the game as a limiting factor to the degrees of dedication put in). This is rapidly changing now though with the ever increasing prize money in the PDC. But the concern of Rod Harrington is that too many of the players are looking to get in on that action without in turn stepping up the amount of work they put into it. With those greater rewards comes a greater responsibilty to not just take from the game but give something back by striving to be as good as you can be.I don't know what any individual players do but Rod probably has a pretty good idea from being around them all the time and his opinion is that it clearly isn't enough. I'm not positioned to say whether or not he's right but he comes across as an honest guy who knows what he's talking about and i'm enclined to trust him on the matter.

To me it's a disgrace when someone like James Wade says he doesn't practice because he's a young man and doesn't want to. Well, I may be sounding like Phil Taylor here but how many of us want to get up in the morning and go to work? You just have to do it if you want to get paid. But some players seemingly want to get paid without putting the work in. Now, I know it is expensive and hard to finance the tour; i'm not talking about the players who work hard to do that - i'm talking about the top end players, the full time pros who are happy to coast along taking the third, fourth, fith prize money, the exhibition work and doing very well out of it. We know who they are.

[callataxi]

dont get me wrong i do agree that their are lots of examples of players currently on the circuit who arent

putting in the work. but guys like whitlock,king,lloyd are putting in lots of work for many years and maybe

their just isnt much more they can reach. ok agreed whitlock seems to have gained a level since leaving the bdo

but mervyn king i do feel has reached his limit. this doesnt mean he cant win a major, because on his day he can beat

almost anyone, but he is the 1st to admit he cant do it every tournament. this is certainly not through a lack of dedication,

its just all he can consistently manage.

[Kirk Bevins]

. but guys like whitlock,king,lloyd are putting in lots of work for many years and maybe

their just isnt much more they can reach.

Just because you're practising so much doesn't mean you're going to get better. Maybe they're not practising correctly or they're not sorting their head out ready for the nerves etc. Sorry to bring it back to Countdown again but there are hundreds of people who have played thousands of games online and aren't getting better that much. They claim it's because they're not "naturally talented". I disagree....they're putting the hours in, sure, but they're not learning/practising properly.

Taylor used to get stuffed a few times (including Peter Evison I was reading in We Love Darts this month) and he has decided to practise properly. Just throwing for 8 hours at the board and feeling that you're playing well isn't enough as you could go onstage the next day and not perform. You have to ask yourself why. Is it nerves? Is your muscle memory working? Are you flicking at the right time etc etc. Taylor puts so much concentration and effort into every dart whereas someone like King doesn't...he just seems to throw and hopes to get close.

[Mr Glass]

I agree that there is a limit to every players ability, but the key to success is making sure that you give it absolutely everything in your quest for the top and not leaving any stone unturned.

I think Rod gets a little annoyed that certain players aren't giving it their best shot as he truly believes that the ability to beat Taylor is in a lot of players, but they just don't believe it themselves.

[and the Iron Fist]

dont get me wrong i do agree that their are lots of examples of players currently on the circuit who arent

putting in the work. but guys like whitlock,king,lloyd are putting in lots of work for many years and maybe

their just isnt much more they can reach. ok agreed whitlock seems to have gained a level since leaving the bdo

but mervyn king i do feel has reached his limit. this doesnt mean he cant win a major, because on his day he can beat

almost anyone, but he is the 1st to admit he cant do it every tournament. this is certainly not through a lack of dedication,

its just all he can consistently manage.

It's a good point about Whitlock becoming more consistent since joining the PDC. That happens to pretty much every player (one obvious, sad exception being Mighty Mike), King most spectacularly. So doing something as 'simple' as joining a more competitive circuit can clearly improve a players game. There must be loads of other things too.

I agree that those players you mentioned in your last post are not amongst those players who are coasting but I don't believe they can't get more consistent. But perhaps they need help to do it. Trouble is that there's not really any professional coaching setup in darts so players are left to their own devices to try and improve. As i said earlier, many of them probably don't know how to go about doing it. These guys I have sympathy with.

Seeing as darts is such a pyschological game could we see more players studying sports psychology?

[callataxi]

if phil taylor never existed, then all the major titles in the past 20 years would have split all over the place.

clearly guys like barney,wade,priestly etc would have won more than most, but just like the 70s and 80s, there

wouldnt be an almost impossible force like taylor who apart from the odd lapse is almost impossible to beat.

we never questioned dedication in the past and only because of a "one off" like phil, we are now questioning guys

like barney,wade,lewis and whitlock because they cant keep up. ok wade doesnt put it all in, but these 4 are special

talents and only taylor is making them look ordinary . i bet they practice as hard as eric,jocky and lowey.

[boommoob2]

Phil Taylor i'd suspect loves Rod Harrington doing alot of his mind games for him and probably why Taylor repeatedly goes on about practice. Taylor practices 2 hours a day according to ex practice partners. I'd expect alot of the top pros match that.

G Anderson for example said he can average 120 in practice but in tv tournaments his mean average is mid nineties. I doubt theres a huge difference between Taylors practice and stage games. On floor tournaments Taylors averages largely stay consistent with his tv game but most players averages shoot up. Solving these riddles is the answer to the question not Taylor's mythical 15 hour practice sessions (2 hours in reality!).

But Rod will likely still be banging on about practice in 5 years time...