So who is to blame ?

[BlueSpark]

Comparing the jewel in the BDO crown to a meaningless exhibition still.
Straws need clutching.

It's a good effort, I'll give him that.

It's the only comparable evidence we have on the subject. Anything else is guesswork.

Isn't the willingness of big tv networks to (continue) broadcasting events comparable evidence? Or the number of people that actually pay to go to events?

Of course it is.

[Mgt]

Comparing the jewel in the BDO crown to a meaningless exhibition still.
Straws need clutching.

It's a good effort, I'll give him that.

It's the only comparable evidence we have on the subject. Anything else is guesswork.

Isn't the willingness of big tv networks to (continue) broadcasting events comparable evidence? Or the number of people that actually pay to go to events?

If the subject wasn't entirely about tv ratings, yes that would have relevance.

Is it though? Seems to me like the arm wrestling vs BDO darts example is just used as one of the symptoms of the BDO's declining popularity, contrasted with the growth of the PDC in recent years.

[ifm]

Comparing the jewel in the BDO crown to a meaningless exhibition still.
Straws need clutching.

It's a good effort, I'll give him that.

It's the only comparable evidence we have on the subject. Anything else is guesswork.

Isn't the willingness of big tv networks to (continue) broadcasting events comparable evidence? Or the number of people that actually pay to go to events?

No

[BlueSpark]

It's a good effort, I'll give him that.

It's the only comparable evidence we have on the subject. Anything else is guesswork.

Isn't the willingness of big tv networks to (continue) broadcasting events comparable evidence? Or the number of people that actually pay to go to events?

If the subject wasn't entirely about tv ratings, yes that would have relevance.

Is it though? Seems to me like the arm wrestling vs BDO darts example is just used as one of the symptoms of the BDO's declining popularity, contrasted with the growth of the PDC in recent years.

The declining popularity in these events is clear for all to see, half empty venues and none of the big channels touching anything other than the Lakeside with a ten foot bargepole.
Even more remarkable, is it's happening under the noses of everyone as clear as day is night and no one has any balls to stand up to the Williams and do something about it.

[Zeyes]

The declining popularity in these events is clear for all to see, half empty venues and none of the big channels touching anything other than the Lakeside with a ten foot bargepole.
Even more remarkable, is it's happening under the noses of everyone as clear as day is night and no one has any balls to stand up to the Williams and do something about it.

I would guess most people within the system have come to accept the idea that nothing can be done about it, or at least that there's nobody capable of doing anything about it. People may be trying to talk up the system's possibilities on Fanatics etc., but it's all just empty wishcasting, isn't it? Realistic proposals are nowhere to be seen, and the stuff people believe to be realistic proposals has a habit of falling apart in short order once implemented.

[Ginge]

The declining popularity in these events is clear for all to see, half empty venues and none of the big channels touching anything other than the Lakeside with a ten foot bargepole.
Even more remarkable, is it's happening under the noses of everyone as clear as day is night and no one has any balls to stand up to the Williams and do something about it.

I would guess most people within the system have come to accept the idea that nothing can be done about it, or at least that there's nobody capable of doing anything about it. People may be trying to talk up the system's possibilities on Fanatics etc., but it's all just empty wishcasting, isn't it? Realistic proposals are nowhere to be seen, and the stuff people believe to be realistic proposals has a habit of falling apart in short order once implemented.

Something about Frank Warren.

[nikkiboy]

The declining popularity in these events is clear for all to see, half empty venues and none of the big channels touching anything other than the Lakeside with a ten foot bargepole.
Even more remarkable, is it's happening under the noses of everyone as clear as day is night and no one has any balls to stand up to the Williams and do something about it.

I would guess most people within the system have come to accept the idea that nothing can be done about it, or at least that there's nobody capable of doing anything about it. People may be trying to talk up the system's possibilities on Fanatics etc., but it's all just empty wishcasting, isn't it? Realistic proposals are nowhere to be seen, and the stuff people believe to be realistic proposals has a habit of falling apart in short order once implemented.

That's the pertinent part as I don't think there is anyone currently involved on that side of the game who is capable.

I've often thought they need some sort of five year plan because we all know that over the next five years good and marketable players will emerge and can be built around. I'd look at rugby for my basis and "employ" the top ten players under central BDO contracts, much like the WRU have done, to prevent them from switching and once someone breaks into the top ten they get offered the same. This could allow the stability needed to get the top players to the level they need to be TV marketable without them being enticed away and allow a group of players to build the future around.

The WDT should have been scrapped or if not played under championship league of darts type conditions with a stream available on betting sites (if they could get any to get involved). It was folly to go ahead and more folly to try and force TV coverage at such short notice. Lakeside is special but I worry about it's future unless a change in attitude is made and personally I would be doing everything I could to make sure that it's future was secure rather than throwing cash at a failed tournament. If you want to try and get something on TV then the Masters would be the logical choice, years of history and the guarantee of a decent size crowd.

[Ginge]

The declining popularity in these events is clear for all to see, half empty venues and none of the big channels touching anything other than the Lakeside with a ten foot bargepole.
Even more remarkable, is it's happening under the noses of everyone as clear as day is night and no one has any balls to stand up to the Williams and do something about it.

I would guess most people within the system have come to accept the idea that nothing can be done about it, or at least that there's nobody capable of doing anything about it. People may be trying to talk up the system's possibilities on Fanatics etc., but it's all just empty wishcasting, isn't it? Realistic proposals are nowhere to be seen, and the stuff people believe to be realistic proposals has a habit of falling apart in short order once implemented.

That's the pertinent part as I don't think there is anyone currently involved on that side of the game who is capable.

I've often thought they need some sort of five year plan because we all know that over the next five years good and marketable players will emerge and can be built around. I'd look at rugby for my basis and "employ" the top ten players under central BDO contracts, much like the WRU have done, to prevent them from switching and once someone breaks into the top ten they get offered the same. This could allow the stability needed to get the top players to the level they need to be TV marketable without them being enticed away and allow a group of players to build the future around.

The WDT should have been scrapped or if not played under championship league of darts type conditions with a stream available on betting sites (if they could get any to get involved). It was folly to go ahead and more folly to try and force TV coverage at such short notice. Lakeside is special but I worry about it's future unless a change in attitude is made and personally I would be doing everything I could to make sure that it's future was secure rather than throwing cash at a failed tournament. If you want to try and get something on TV then the Masters would be the logical choice, years of history and the guarantee of a decent size crowd.

You want them to get the top 10 to sign something stating they wont switch?

Yes, good luck with that one. Unless there is a financial inducement to do so or they are Adams/Monty "loyalists" and/or old timers who are going nowhere, why on earth would anyone else bother to do so?

And if there was financial inducement, then it flies in the face of the "darts for all" ethos....

[WCDPA]

Last year of the current C4deal I feel the viewing figures for Lakeside will decide our future , need to be healthy to show there is an audience for our product, WDT was a massive setback and shouldn't have gone ahead. Like nikkiboy said concentrate on long term deals for Lakeside and Winmau , finally have a proper sit down with the EDO been waiting 2 years , an open meeting with no set agendas and leave historical differences outside the meeting room , do what's best for darts instead of points scoring .

[nikkiboy]

The declining popularity in these events is clear for all to see, half empty venues and none of the big channels touching anything other than the Lakeside with a ten foot bargepole.
Even more remarkable, is it's happening under the noses of everyone as clear as day is night and no one has any balls to stand up to the Williams and do something about it.

I would guess most people within the system have come to accept the idea that nothing can be done about it, or at least that there's nobody capable of doing anything about it. People may be trying to talk up the system's possibilities on Fanatics etc., but it's all just empty wishcasting, isn't it? Realistic proposals are nowhere to be seen, and the stuff people believe to be realistic proposals has a habit of falling apart in short order once implemented.

That's the pertinent part as I don't think there is anyone currently involved on that side of the game who is capable.

I've often thought they need some sort of five year plan because we all know that over the next five years good and marketable players will emerge and can be built around. I'd look at rugby for my basis and "employ" the top ten players under central BDO contracts, much like the WRU have done, to prevent them from switching and once someone breaks into the top ten they get offered the same. This could allow the stability needed to get the top players to the level they need to be TV marketable without them being enticed away and allow a group of players to build the future around.

The WDT should have been scrapped or if not played under championship league of darts type conditions with a stream available on betting sites (if they could get any to get involved). It was folly to go ahead and more folly to try and force TV coverage at such short notice. Lakeside is special but I worry about it's future unless a change in attitude is made and personally I would be doing everything I could to make sure that it's future was secure rather than throwing cash at a failed tournament. If you want to try and get something on TV then the Masters would be the logical choice, years of history and the guarantee of a decent size crowd.

You want them to get the top 10 to sign something stating they wont switch?

Yes, good luck with that one. Unless there is a financial inducement to do so or they are Adams/Monty "loyalists" and/or old timers who are going nowhere, why on earth would anyone else bother to do so?

And if there was financial inducement, then it flies in the face of the "darts for all" ethos....

The darts for all ethos is already dead and they don't sign saying they won't switch but are rewarded with a wage paid centrally. And yes there will be a financial benefit as they will effectively be paid a wage by the BDO. Look up the WRU central contracts I quoted.

[nikkiboy]

Last year of the current C4deal I feel the viewing figures for Lakeside will decide our future , need to be healthy to show there is an audience for our product, WDT was a massive setback and shouldn't have gone ahead. Like nikkiboy said concentrate on long term deals for Lakeside and Winmau ,finally have a proper sit down with the EDO been waiting 2 years, an open meeting with no set agendas and leave historical differences outside the meeting room , do what's best for darts instead of points scoring .

That cannot be done Paul, too much has happened and people will inevitably take their own egendas as prejudices into the meeting thus ensuring it's failure. The only way that would work is if both side appoint someone to negotiate for them and agree to be bound by the decisions.

[Ginge]

The darts for all ethos is already dead and they don't sign saying they won't switch but are rewarded with a wage paid centrally. And yes there will be a financial benefit as they will effectively be paid a wage by the BDO. Look up the WRU central contracts I quoted.

Yes Im aware of central contracts, the England and Wales Cricket Board (ECB) have them as well.

I just dont see any situation where you are paying 10 players from the counties money actually happening in reality. What if a top 10 player refuses to sign this document? How long is the document in force for? How much are you paying them? Who pays for this, does it come from the cash reserves or are you asking the 67 counties to pay more to essentially fund 10 darts players?

Its a total non-starter.

[nikkiboy]

The darts for all ethos is already dead and they don't sign saying they won't switch but are rewarded with a wage paid centrally. And yes there will be a financial benefit as they will effectively be paid a wage by the BDO. Look up the WRU central contracts I quoted.

Yes Im aware of central contracts, the England and Wales Cricket Board (ECB) have them as well.

I just dont see any situation where you are paying 10 players from the counties money actually happening in reality. What if a top 10 player refuses to sign this document? How long is the document in force for? How much are you paying them? Who pays for this, does it come from the cash reserves or are you asking the 67 counties to pay more to essentially fund 10 darts players?

Its a total non-starter.

It's paid from BDO coffers, the only way any five year plan would work would be to have stability and continuity of talent over those years to get to a point where they have a marketable product, if a player does not want to sign then he gets no financial reward simple. When the BDO had recognisable players, Adams, O'Shea, Hankey etc etc they had an alternative product which was marketable, unfortunately they messed it up and are left with decent but mostly unrecognisable players and if they want to sell it to TV they need players people know along with players who are comfortable with playing at the top of the game. At present as soon as they get close they are enticed over to the PDC and have to start building up the playing talent again. This would allow for some financial stability for the players and allow the BDO to create the new batch of TV players. It is an investment in the future hence the five years plan.

[Ginge]

It's paid from BDO coffers

And thats the end of that as a viable option then.

As an aside, simply handing £25k (or whatever) a year to ten players, as well as being total lunacy, wont suddenly start getting a load of events on TV again and sponsors, even in a five year timeframe. They are so far behind the PDC commercially that ten years probably wouldnt be enough.

Before anything happened anyway, the current incumbents would have to go, no plan with those two at the helm would have a sniff of working.

[ifm]

Darts for all is alive and kicking.

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[Ginge]

Darts for all is alive and kicking.

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No its dead, Nick said so.

[ifm]

Darts for all is alive and kicking.

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No its dead, Nick said so.

He's wrong.

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[WCDPA]

Alive and kicking .......JDC, Dev tour, CT, euro tour , pro tour , only thing needed now is a ladies tour although they can do all of the other tours .

[ifm]

Alive and kicking .......JDC, Dev tour, CT, euro tour , pro tour , only thing needed now is a ladies tour although they can do all of the other tours .

This is not about the pdc.

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[nikkiboy]

Darts for all is alive and kicking.

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No its dead, Nick said so.

He's wrong.

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Really?

We know they fail trying to cater for the professional side of the game and poeple on here complained that the entry fees put pub players off entering anything so darts for all? Not any more, was probably true circa 1978-2008 but no more. Of course the "all" has never meant all either, it means anyone not a PDPA member so again not "all".