malcy93 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:33 pm
Is the issue that both BBC and then C4 paid for Lakeside but with that prize fund paid by Potter then the TV money covered the loses of the WDT and Masters having no sponsorship of the prize fund.
Now they are with Eurosport who are paying nothing for the rights (or a nominal amount) there’s no money to pay for the Masters and WDT hence those events should have been cancelled. Hold them blew through the BDO bank account.
Key point of all of this is the failure of the BDO to get sponsors to pay for the prize funds,
I believe BBC was profitable, Channel 4 less so. Has been previously quoted that Eurosport is lose making as cost of production paid by BDO cost more
than the money from Eurosport. Plus I assume Sports Total also get commission on the income on this deal to make the lose even higher.
malcy93 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:33 pm
Is the issue that both BBC and then C4 paid for Lakeside but with that prize fund paid by Potter then the TV money covered the loses of the WDT and Masters having no sponsorship of the prize fund.
Now they are with Eurosport who are paying nothing for the rights (or a nominal amount) there’s no money to pay for the Masters and WDT hence those events should have been cancelled. Hold them blew through the BDO bank account.
Key point of all of this is the failure of the BDO to get sponsors to pay for the prize funds,
I believe BBC was profitable, Channel 4 less so. Has been previously quoted that Eurosport is lose making as cost of production paid by BDO cost more
than the money from Eurosport. Plus I assume Sports Total also get commission on the income on this deal to make the lose even higher.
So they really are banking on ticket sales for the 02? Normally bores me silly, but I would love to see the accounts!
Cannot judge as have not seen the accounts but it was announced by the Chairman and even if he is a lier, as others have stated, that would be a very weird lie to choose.
The 140k is based on the published accounts on companies house. Operating costs have been pretty level for last 10 years with Olly and Sue. It is the variable event costs that go up and down so reasonable to assume most of the loses came out of there.
The advantage of being a van driver! is you are used to being frugal. That would seem likely to be less natural to a millionaire!
bishbashbosh180 wrote:Cannot judge as have not seen the accounts but it was announced by the Chairman and even if he is a lier, as others have stated, that would be a very weird lie to choose.
The 140k is based on the published accounts on companies house. Operating costs have been pretty level for last 10 years with Olly and Sue. It is the variable event costs that go up and down so reasonable to assume most of the loses came out of there.
The advantage of being a van driver! is you are used to being frugal. That would seem likely to be less natural to a millionaire!
malcy93 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:33 pm
Is the issue that both BBC and then C4 paid for Lakeside but with that prize fund paid by Potter then the TV money covered the loses of the WDT and Masters having no sponsorship of the prize fund.
Now they are with Eurosport who are paying nothing for the rights (or a nominal amount) there’s no money to pay for the Masters and WDT hence those events should have been cancelled. Hold them blew through the BDO bank account.
Key point of all of this is the failure of the BDO to get sponsors to pay for the prize funds,
I believe BBC was profitable, Channel 4 less so. Has been previously quoted that Eurosport is lose making as cost of production paid by BDO cost more
than the money from Eurosport. Plus I assume Sports Total also get commission on the income on this deal to make the lose even higher.
If the deal is as quoted by various people on Facebook, then they will need a higher % average take up than Lakeside have achieved in years to breakeven. Interesting to understand how many of the Directors understand the difference between cash and net cash!
bishbashbosh180 wrote:Cannot judge as have not seen the accounts but it was announced by the Chairman and even if he is a lier, as others have stated, that would be a very weird lie to choose.
The 140k is based on the published accounts on companies house. Operating costs have been pretty level for last 10 years with Olly and Sue. It is the variable event costs that go up and down so reasonable to assume most of the loses came out of there.
The advantage of being a van driver! is you are used to being frugal. That would seem likely to be less natural to a millionaire!
So how did She lose 450k in one year?
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No this was the lose for the first year of Des as Chairman. Last 3 years of Olly was about breakeven, 7 years of Sue was about 140K loss, first 18 months of Des approx 650K loss - 46 years of savings accrued by Olly.
Other than my analysis of the the last 6 months this is all on Companies house.
For what it's worth I think all these numbers are spot on, although I didnt know about Des's throwaway comment about £450k loss on y/e may 2019 (I assume that is the year in question)
I'll go back to my numbers at some point but it all fits in.
That loss though is larger than expected and if it's converted into cash outflow of the same amount ( and it broadly will depending on the timing of the accounts and what's in debtors & creditors at the time) then we will see this in the accounts when filed in Feb 2020.
Des really has fucked this up big time . He should never have committed to these loss making tv tournaments (apart from the worlds)
Paul back on full on Des defence mode again on Fanatics.. he must have had a little visit
Des shouldn't have committed to 9 TV events under the present situation.. He should have focused on the Worlds and kept that at Lakeside for the immediate future whilst working behind the scenes to rebuild the whole situation..
As ir stands it would appear they are totally reliant on 02 ticket money.. I'm sure there will be a sponsor announced for that.. Its on TV and will still attract publicity, especially with Leighton Bennett there but no sponsor is going to hugely finance it as the BDO hold no cards at present leaving sponsors to virtually name their deal.
trotter01 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:09 am
Paul back on full on Des defence mode again on Fanatics.. he must have had a little visit
Des shouldn't have committed to 9 TV events under the present situation.. He should have focused on the Worlds and kept that at Lakeside for the immediate future whilst working behind the scenes to rebuild the whole situation..
As ir stands it would appear they are totally reliant on 02 ticket money.. I'm sure there will be a sponsor announced for that.. Its on TV and will still attract publicity, especially with Leighton Bennett there but no sponsor is going to hugely finance it as the BDO hold no cards at present leaving sponsors to virtually name their deal.
spot on. I have tried to say this on Fanatics. Commercial suicide for him to commit to that if the finances were that bad. That one decision is enough to know that he is the wrong man for the job.
bishbashbosh180 wrote:Cannot judge as have not seen the accounts but it was announced by the Chairman and even if he is a lier, as others have stated, that would be a very weird lie to choose.
The 140k is based on the published accounts on companies house. Operating costs have been pretty level for last 10 years with Olly and Sue. It is the variable event costs that go up and down so reasonable to assume most of the loses came out of there.
The advantage of being a van driver! is you are used to being frugal. That would seem likely to be less natural to a millionaire!
So how did She lose 450k in one year?
Sent from my Mi A2 using Tapatalk
No this was the lose for the first year of Des as Chairman. Last 3 years of Olly was about breakeven, 7 years of Sue was about 140K loss, first 18 months of Des approx 650K loss - 46 years of savings accrued by Olly.
Other than my analysis of the the last 6 months this is all on Companies house.
One small note of caution on Des losing £450k in his first year is that by the time he took over in Summer 2018 (?) the WDT edition that is in the 2018 financial year had already taken place at the start of June. So assuming that made an £80-£100k loss then it was the previous regime who lost that and Des started with probably just under £600k in the bank.
So we can probably blame him for around £350k loss in that year (!) - less if the 2018 Masters was already committed by the time Des Started ? And of course he had to put on a 2019 Worlds of some sort.
So, it all comes back to him committing the BDO to the new 9 TV majors with NO significant TV money and NO significant sponsors. A MASSIVE gamble at best and at worst an almost guaranteed path to BDO bankruptcy
bishbashbosh180 wrote:Cannot judge as have not seen the accounts but it was announced by the Chairman and even if he is a lier, as others have stated, that would be a very weird lie to choose.
The 140k is based on the published accounts on companies house. Operating costs have been pretty level for last 10 years with Olly and Sue. It is the variable event costs that go up and down so reasonable to assume most of the loses came out of there.
The advantage of being a van driver! is you are used to being frugal. That would seem likely to be less natural to a millionaire!
So how did She lose 450k in one year?
Sent from my Mi A2 using Tapatalk
No this was the lose for the first year of Des as Chairman. Last 3 years of Olly was about breakeven, 7 years of Sue was about 140K loss, first 18 months of Des approx 650K loss - 46 years of savings accrued by Olly.
Other than my analysis of the the last 6 months this is all on Companies house.
One small note of caution on Des losing £450k in his first year is that by the time he took over in Summer 2018 (?) the WDT edition that is in the 2018 financial year had already taken place at the start of June. So assuming that made an £80-£100k loss then it was the previous regime who lost that and Des started with probably just under £600k in the bank.
So we can probably blame him for around £350k loss in that year (!) - less if the 2018 Masters was already committed by the time Des Started ? And of course he had to put on a 2019 Worlds of some sort.
So, it all comes back to him committing the BDO to the new 9 TV majors with NO significant TV money and NO significant sponsors. A MASSIVE gamble at best and at worst an almost guaranteed path to BDO bankruptcy
Fair points. However, Des was already on the board so arguably was involved in the decisions but equally Sue stayed on the board post August. So gets messy at this level without the detail. My comments previously were just highlighting the broader context of the current position as the narrative generally seems to be everything is down to the previous regime which is not what the numbers say, although that is only one perspective as Paul's post on Fanatics last night highlights.
Also on TV deal my understanding is the Penalty clause for not holding an event is pretty high which reinforces your point, devil and deep blue sea springs to mind.
Also one point I really don’t get is if the bdo are reliant on o2 ticket sales then that must mean they are not using a promoter for the event (or they have and the promoter haven’t tendered it which is ridiculous) and have booked the venue themselves, which goes against everything we have heard.
Which if that is true then it’s not a simple case of all money in is theirs, it’s going to be money in minus hiring costs, production costs for 10 days and the prize fund.
And that’s going to mean the bdo are going to have to sell like 1000 tickets per session every season.
Edit as I’ve just seen this mentioned on Facebook - if the bdo is as bad as mentioned then they are completely fucked due to the Eurosport contract. They signed up to 9 tv events and have signed up to 3 major events at 3 different venues that are losing them hundreds of thousands.
If des leaves in January then whoever takes over is going to be in the same boat that des was by having to work around contracts signed by the previous regime.
Last edited by Zapp Brannigan on Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Zapp Brannigan wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:54 am
Also one point I really don’t get is if the bdo are reliant on o2 ticket sales then that must mean they are not using a promoter for the event (or they have and the promoter haven’t tendered it which is ridiculous) and have booked the venue themselves, which goes against everything they have heard.
Which if that is the case it’s not a simple case of all money in is theirs, it’s going to be money in minus hiring costs, production costs for 10 days and the prize fund.
And that’s going to mean the bdo are going to have to sell like 1000 tickets per session every season.
Edit as I’ve just seen this mentioned on Facebook - if the bdo is as bad as mentioned then they are completely fekked due to the Eurosport contract. They signed up to 9 tv events and have signed up to 3 major events at 3 different venues that are losing them hundreds of thousands.
If des leaves in January then whoever takes over is going to be in the same boat that des was by having to work around contracts signed by the previous regime.
But whoever takes over won’t have 500k+ in the bank to piss up against a wall.
Questions have to be asked, if ticket sales are poor and they are relying on big crowds will the world champions 100k cheque bounce.
