Tour card and free money to ranked players

[Booji Boy]

10000's into 128 is an excellent point. Of course it should never be about that it should be seen as the elite, so a very small number from that pot of thousands will make it. The rest should be content with the various opens and other comps that kick around. That is the vision of the tour card.

[Dicie]

Rod wanted a tour of excellence Dicie not players who were there because they could afford it ( his words)
If Jamie or Brendan got beat 6/0 EVERY weekend don't think they would need telling it was time to go .

Do you think the pdc can afford to turn around to a player and say, eh sorry pal, u aint up to scratch.

firstly, who de blob is gonna see how bad he is, they play in leisure centres, with 2 guests per player, if he is that bad he aint gonna make the tv stages now is he? NO

Can any company be run in the way the pdc is.

max 12,800 income on a saturday
Outgoings of possibly 20 odd staff, hall hire, equipment needs to be transported around, plys on top of that 36k prizemoney. Surely this bubble cant go on without bursting?

The ProTour isn't designed to be self-financing.
This bubble made profits of around £1/2m last year if I remember rightly.

My point exactly
Thanks premier league.
Next debate!!!

What debate was there? The bubble wasn't bursting was it like you tried to insinuate.
Everyone knows that the Premier League finances the ProTour; what's wrong with that? Both the Premier League and World Championship took in £1m in ticket sales. Its all money coming in and spent in different areas.

Where did i try and insinuate it was busrting, i ASKED was it.

Every PDC player that cashes on any weekend, shud walk up to them 8 players and thank them. That was my point.

If you havent seen it, thats not my issue.

[WCDPA]

10000's into 128 is an excellent point. Of course it should never be about that it should be seen as the elite, so a very small number from that pot of thousands will make it. The rest should be content with the various opens and other comps that kick around. That is the vision of the tour card.

Does that mean we agree mod ?????

It also means players who could get into the 128 can do the BDO tour if they prefer.

[Dannyboy]

10000's into 128 is an excellent point. Of course it should never be about that it should be seen as the elite, so a very small number from that pot of thousands will make it. The rest should be content with the various opens and other comps that kick around. That is the vision of the tour card.

Does that mean we agree mod ?????

It also means players who could get into the 128 can do the BDO tour if they prefer.

Do you mean couldn't?
The thing is there are players at the top end of the BDO rankings that can make it, refuse to join the 128!

[oche balboa]

10000's into 128 is an excellent point. Of course it should never be about that it should be seen as the elite, so a very small number from that pot of thousands will make it. The rest should be content with the various opens and other comps that kick around. That is the vision of the tour card.

Does that mean we agree mod ?????

It also means players who could get into the 128 can do the BDO tour if they prefer.

Do you mean couldn't?
The thing is there are players at the top end of the BDO rankings that can make it, refuse to join the 128!

And thats there choice, nothing to do with bottle

[Dicie]

EDO seem to be offering an alternative.

These £25 entry events with longer format (well longer than uk events, last time i checked most european events were best of 7) with a decent prize fund are the way to go.

[WCDPA]

10000's into 128 is an excellent point. Of course it should never be about that it should be seen as the elite, so a very small number from that pot of thousands will make it. The rest should be content with the various opens and other comps that kick around. That is the vision of the tour card.

Does that mean we agree mod ?????

It also means players who could get into the 128 can do the BDO tour if they prefer.

Do you mean couldn't?
The thing is there are players at the top end of the BDO rankings that can make it, refuse to join the 128!

They don't refuse to join they choose not to enter, lads like Andy Cornwall , Joe Murnan doing QS as they missed out on lakeside Joe IMO will qualify through QS, last year done a few events on tour so has backing in place so can afford it and towards end of season was really playing well.
Andy a good mate travelled most Places so obviously has the finances to compete .
Players like robbo, winstanley, oshea, fitton etc get exbos attached to nearly every event they go to ! Throw in promoters maybe paying their hotel plus the great sponsors they have got most events they go to are profitable even if they lose 1st round.
Robbo could play an event in holland and stay 2weeks gets loads of exbos , secret is he gives good value and doesn't overcharge like some.

[devosteve]

There is a possibility (maybe only slight) that in the next couple of years the only place to make good money, and be a full time professional, is playing darts in the PDC. If this happens it means NOW is the time to try to be part of the '128'. There will always be a place for the 1,000's but the top end can never be about the 1,000's. What i like about the tour card and the q school it is not, as some claim, a closed shop. Any of the 1,000's can apply to be part of the 128. It goes without saying we need a good secondary system but the vast majority of people who watch sky, go to the PL and thus pay for the tour, are only concerned about the 'elite'.

[Sat Nav]

I agree with the original post, the tour card has not worked and hasn't achieved anything other that ensuring that there are less entries to all of the UK pro tour events. It should be scrapped but like a lot of you i believe that certain people's egos will mean that they will persevere with it.

[Booji Boy]

I agree with the original post, the tour card has not worked and hasn't achieved anything other that ensuring that there are less entries to all of the UK pro tour events. It should be scrapped but like a lot of you i believe that certain people's egos will mean that they will persevere with it.

I tell you what the minute businesses are being run by egomaniacs as opposed to economists is the time when businesses fail. The tour card has nothing to do with ego and if it is not working from a business stand point then best believe the PDC will do something to sort it out. There is no way they would run a tour that cost them money, that is just unsustainable for any business.

[fandarts]

i think "tour card" was a nice buzz word , an ideal of the pdc to bring the image of the game into line with tennis and golf for example

[Zeyes]

I totally agree with most of the points on here. And to some extent the problem has already been solved. In Europe, players pay £25 to enter the qualifiers on the Saturday morning. Not sure how many turn up to these events, but I'm sure they could easily get into the 100s and play off for maybe 16-32 places in the main draw.

Can't speak to the other continental events, but in Germany the qualifiers take place on Friday, not Saturday. Either way, even if they held them on Saturday, just who are those qualifiers going to attract? Anybody who's serious about playing the Pro Tour weekend will buy in at full price, and even with just those players there's grumbling from the UK contingent that many of them just aren't on par skill-wise. What quality of player is going to come from the qualifiers if they actually did attract "into the 100s"? It's not going to be anyone who needs to travel very far, so we're talking local players here. Maybe for the Netherlands and Austria that would mean players from most of the country, given their smaller size; for Germany it's always going to be just a part of the country.

Would UK Pro Tour qualifier events attract triple-digit numbers of players? Maybe, but the PDC clearly isn't interested in running their circuit as a BDO light, so that's a non-starter.

In any case, was there really a need to have yet another thread about how the tour card is pointless and needs to be scrapped right away? Nikkiboy, I think by now everyone has understood that you're no fan of the tour card system. Maybe we could all wait and see how things shake out next year when the system has actually had time to stabilize at its intended setup? (Primarily the part that only the top 64 requalify automatically, which wasn't the case for the first year.)

BTW, why is nobody complaining that the Youth Tour is a failure, considering that the early events attracted nearly 100 players and the ones near the end of the year barely cleared 40?

[Zeyes]

What debate was there? The bubble wasn't bursting was it like you tried to insinuate.
Everyone knows that the Premier League finances the ProTour; what's wrong with that? Both the Premier League and World Championship took in £1m in ticket sales. Its all money coming in and spent in different areas.

Which also means that Tommy Thompson's persistent issue with players like van Barneveld completely misses the point. The PDC needs those players to rock it on TV; their attendance on the floor circuit is pretty much optional for the PDC's fortunes, especially with the UK events not open to the public anyway.

Maybe it would be different if half the top 16 were regularly skipping the tour and not just Barney and Phil, but luckily the PDC has a carrot on offer that the BDO/EDO/WDF don't: lotsa prize money.

[trotter]

for proper views on the tour card and it's success and possible future i think you have to wait to see what happens after the next QS and into next year..
they should get a lot closer to the 128 next year...the top 64 generally turn up most weeks and will continue to do so...the 25 tour card holders from the last QS will mainly turn up as well...the guaranteed 31 new card holders will also mainly turn up as well....the 4 youths will be there as well....that is 124 spots....the 4 Lakeside semi finalists would turn up if they accepted and if they didn't then the spots would go to QS and the qualifiers would mainly turn up as well
That is 128 players.....the make up of the holders this time would mean that the fields would be much nearer the 128 this time....there will never be a full 128 at every event i don't think..virtually impossible..but i think they will get it a lot closer this time.

[Tommy Thompson]

I don't think I am missing the point at all, and I have not got a problem with Barney etc, he is making the system suit what he wants to do, which is fine, the only point I was making was that different events were put all over the world, such as South Africa USA Canade Australia with £6,000 first prize, the way it was done meant that the players who desperately neede the points/money had to attend even though they knew they would lose money yet the top players could afford to miss these long trips, if you want to create a world tour with events around the world you need your TV players to be there to promote the event, encourage sponsors etc, if the system is geared up to make it easy for them to miss, then the players promoting the system are the players least able to financially, seems a bit upside down.

If you want positive debate on issues then I don't see the point of trying to score political points, sure then BDO are at this time unable to give the same prize money as the PDC, but that was not the point of the post, you could say as has been said if the Premier League wasn't successful or continues to be successful then the players championships would not be able to continue running at a loss.

Myself I would encourage as many as possible to attend the players championships to try and make them self sufficient, but it isn't my call, just my opinion, as I really don't see what is it the players championships for any venue, as the people allowed to attend are restricted.

[Zeyes]

I don't think I am missing the point at all, and I have not got a problem with Barney etc, he is making the system suit what he wants to do, which is fine, the only point I was making was that different events were put all over the world, such as South Africa USA Canade Australia with £6,000 first prize, the way it was done meant that the players who desperately neede the points/money had to attend even though they knew they would lose money yet the top players could afford to miss these long trips, if you want to create a world tour with events around the world you need your TV players to be there to promote the event, encourage sponsors etc, if the system is geared up to make it easy for them to miss, then the players promoting the system are the players least able to financially, seems a bit upside down.

And now all those events are off the schedule, which isn't entirely surprising considering the top players didn't care for them and the rank-and-file struggled to afford going there. Well, I suppose it's surprising for those fans who persist in the mindset (I don't mean you here, Tommy) that the PDC only exists with two goals in mind, enriching Barry Hearn and screwing over players outside the top 16.

If you want positive debate on issues then I don't see the point of trying to score political points, sure then BDO are at this time unable to give the same prize money as the PDC, but that was not the point of the post, you could say as has been said if the Premier League wasn't successful or continues to be successful then the players championships would not be able to continue running at a loss.

I'm not trying to score political points; you posted in this thread misapplying a BDO/EDO/WDF issue to the PDC (and not for the first time), and I'm pointing out exactly why you're talking apples and oranges. Do you dispute that, if the top 10 WDF players were already (near-)guaranteed a Lakeside spot at the beginning of the year, most of them likely wouldn't bother to play nearly as many events as they do? With the exception of van Barneveld somehow the PDC manages to get its top 10 to attend the Pro Tour just fine, even though they're usually in no danger of missing any of the TV events.

Myself I would encourage as many as possible to attend the players championships to try and make them self sufficient, but it isn't my call, just my opinion, as I really don't see what is it the players championships for any venue, as the people allowed to attend are restricted.

This paragraph makes me wonder if you truly don't understand the PDC's business model, I'm afraid. What's in it for the venue? Whatever the PDC pays them for using it, of course. Is it not a real darts tournament for you if the organizer doesn't have to rely on players' bar tabs, room bookings or casino losses to make things worthwhile for the venue owners?

In any case, even with 160 players in attendance the Pro Tour events wouldn't even be halfway to being self-sufficient, so maybe the PDC doesn't just need to scrap the tour card, but also reduce prize funds by 50% and/or jack up the entry fee to 200 GBP. Or maybe what the PDC is doing with the Pro Tour simply doesn't require self-sufficiency...

[slymaster]

In theroy the tourcard was supposed to be a tool for players to use to gain sponsors. The reality has turned out that they are of little or no value. The only way the tourcard can work IMO is if its is given real value. I would have say 48 tour cards who get free entry to the pro tour. The rest of the places being taken up in the old way by people rockin up with their £200. The top 32 on the players championship OOM regain their card, the other 16 places filled annually by the Q school. Then you would guarantee real competititon for the cards as they are worth real money, you would be damn sure the Barneys of this world wouldnt be taking chances missing pro tour events and the competition at the q school would be something else

Spot on imo!
If they want The Elite they should reward them as such (please dont give me the usual bs).

Pro Tour Card:
Different levels of....
Reduced/Free Entry Pro Tour
Sponsor package
Hotel Vouchers etc...

What the hell is the PDPA doing? I mean really what is the purpose of the PDPA?

[Reinier]

Don't the PDPA get the players good deals on hotel/flight rates? I also thought it was possible to rent a car for a lower rate.

[ifm]

Don't the PDPA get the players good deals on hotel/flight rates? I also thought it was possible to rent a car for a lower rate.

They get a reduced rate but only from the venue, very few take up these as the reduced rate is still high.
Killarney for example, venue 191euro for 3 nights, travelinn 123euro, it adds up over a year.

[ChrisW]

Don't the PDPA get the players good deals on hotel/flight rates? I also thought it was possible to rent a car for a lower rate.

They get a reduced rate but only from the venue, very few take up these as the reduced rate is still high.
Killarney for example, venue 191euro for 3 nights, travelinn 123euro, it adds up over a year.

Yeah I have been involved in running events and you usually get good preferential rates for people attending but then they are the better hotels so still expensive.
When I have agreed the rates with the hotel it is pretty easy and actually what they offer on the net anyway.
You can still find better offers if you look around. I was in Brussels at an expo 2 weeks ago the discounted offers were between 80-150 per night. Looked around and found a better hotel place for 70 (not discounted) so you can imagine it would have been 50 if a deal could have been arranged to fill the hotel.