The future of the BDO and Lakeside - your views

[Zeyes]

Isn't the whole point of a world class darts tour that the best players compete for the biggest prizes, with some places for wildcards and qualifiers etc? Take a sport like tennis, you don't see many players outside the top 100 in the 4 major tournaments or competing regularly on the main tour. Players ranked too low to compete on the main tour compete on other tours. Below the main tour is the challenger tour, then the futures tour, then the satellite tour. Darts needs a similar sort of system.

Nitpick: The satellite tour was folded into an expanded futures tour a few years ago. I'd argue darts already has a (fractured) system like that - the whole Superleague and county setup on the BDO side, plus Q School on the PDC side. It's the gap between the two that needs to be bridged - the PDC is trying on its own for a subset of players with the Youth Tour - and that's where cooperation would be helpful.

One thing I'll never understand - the BDO has so much to be proud of with Superleague and county, which provide a structured approach for players of various levels of skill, but for some reason it's the big open tournaments that are always held up by boosters of that side as the pinnacle of the BDO system, even though (see the poker comparison above) those tournaments essentially come down to "if you pay the money you're in, no proof of competency required". The only thing those tournaments are is "large", everything else is done better somewhere within the BDO or within the PDC. If the Super Series had actually got off the ground, those facts would be even more obvious.

[avalon]

Is that a closed shop then?

well yes it is because if you have no tour card then you cannot play any pro tour events

But anyone can pitch up at q school and play the wc qualifier later in the year.


Anyone


So how is that a closed shop

you will still have to be a pdpa member or associate member though

For the last time, it's not a closed shop. Anyone can become a member.
Anyone
You, me and even Ninge
Any dart player in the world can join. Regardless of ability, sex, nationality.
Anyone. No restrictions.

So how is that a closed shop?

I am not sure anyone here understands the term `closed shop`

I first came across the term in the late 70`s when I was offered a job BUT I could only accept it if I became a member of the union. If I didnt want to join the union ( it was USDAW ) I didnt have the job. That is a closed shop.

In this case anyone can join the pdpa but if you dont you can`t enter the players championships etc as a uk based player that makes it a closed shop. It is closed for members only. I think this is what Nikki is trying to explain.

Any dart player in the world can join, regardless of ability, sex, nationality, but if you dont join ( in the UK ) you cant play and that is what the term `closed shop` means.

[nikkiboy]

I am not sure anyone here understands the term `closed shop`

I first came across the term in the late 70`s when I was offered a job BUT I could only accept it if I became a member of the union. If I didnt want to join the union ( it was USDAW ) I didnt have the job. That is a closed shop.

In this case anyone can join the pdpa but if you dont you can`t enter the players championships etc as a uk based player that makes it a closed shop. It is closed for members only. I think this is what Nikki is trying to explain.

Any dart player in the world can join, regardless of ability, sex, nationality, but if you dont join ( in the UK ) you cant play and that is what the term `closed shop` means.

Thanks Avalon I'm glad someone understood.

As a UK player if I joined after q school or failed to get a card I am forbidden from taking part in all UK events that qualify for the world's, bar the Turkey shoot at the very end. All PDC events with ranking points are closed to me.
Under the BDO system you are permitted to enter any and all ranking events and compete equally with everyone else to get your top ten or twelve points tallies towards qualification.

At the world's qualifiers only about 79 people took part, add that to the 70 already qualified and you can see that from a UK players perspective I was not far out with my estimate of 150. Of course there were international qualifiers but in the part some of these have been on more than a hand picked small selection of people.

As for someone like kist or Winstanley coming from nowhere to make the final this is far less likely to happen under the PDC system, some quoted the youth tour to me but both players were I believe too old to get in through that route.

I hope that explains in better detail what I was trying to say jaguar night but was on my phone and just too tired.

[Skewball]

well yes it is because if you have no tour card then you cannot play any pro tour events

But anyone can pitch up at q school and play the wc qualifier later in the year.


Anyone


So how is that a closed shop

you will still have to be a pdpa member or associate member though

For the last time, it's not a closed shop. Anyone can become a member.
Anyone
You, me and even Ninge
Any dart player in the world can join. Regardless of ability, sex, nationality.
Anyone. No restrictions.

So how is that a closed shop?

I am not sure anyone here understands the term `closed shop`

I first came across the term in the late 70`s when I was offered a job BUT I could only accept it if I became a member of the union. If I didnt want to join the union ( it was USDAW ) I didnt have the job. That is a closed shop.

In this case anyone can join the pdpa but if you dont you can`t enter the players championships etc as a uk based player that makes it a closed shop. It is closed for members only. I think this is what Nikki is trying to explain.

Any dart player in the world can join, regardless of ability, sex, nationality, but if you dont join ( in the UK ) you cant play and that is what the term `closed shop` means.

I know the historical basis for the term closed shop but as with many references in our language the term is not being used in the same context here.

The fact that remains anyone can become a member, anyone. No barriers. I can assure you that that is not the same as the historical context of being a member of a union where any number of factors in your background, views, family could stop the union allowing you to become a member, even if they just did not like the look of you.
So in both the historical context and the literal one it is not a closed shop.

I can become a member, affiliate or otherwise and come from nowhere to enter the qualifiers and become world champion.

THe fact that for about 10 months I could not enter the bdo opens is just not relevant. It's not ideal of course and we all want a unified darts world but it's just not right to label the PDC a close shop

[Chizzyfan]

I think it was finished the day Chizzy joined the PDC...

[dynamite1]

at the moment the bdo is done and has a would say 1 more year but with just a few changes it would be great for a start bigger prize money on there tour bigger money at lakeside doesnt have to be as big as pdc also show all the games on tv

[TheSportsDean]

still at the end of it you have a system with a capacity of 150ish.
The BDO county system alone totally outweighs this. So at some point you would have to have a Qschool with 100's of disappointed players.
Just doesn't make sense yet. Someone on either side has to come up with a better plan if both codes can work together otherwise i see this continuing.

and Murphio you are forgetting that the Lakeside 32 could probably compete with any of the last 64 in the tour so your argument doesn't make sense.
We have to have a unified field then it has to be the best otherwise we're back to where we are now.

What's the downside of having the PDC as the place for the elite 128 players, the BDO pretty much in place as now, but with the two organisations working together? I'm struggling to see your point about the BDO county system having more than 150ish players. If they're good enough and want to play top end darts they would either be cherry picked by the PDC or qualify by right through the system/OOM established.

The BDO side of things can still have county, and larger fields, but it would just be seen officially as the second tier of darts.

For me, relegation and promotion is the way forward. You can't have one system that looks after everyone. It's kind of a reason the Premier League was established in football. There has to be tiers.

Elite (Premier League = PDC)
Second Tier (Football League = BDO)

Rather than competing against each other, have clearly defined goals. BDO to bring through talent to the PDC, PDC to provide for the elite and support the BDO in nurturing this talent. As long as the BDO remains with a profile, for example Masters and Lakeside still on TV and the top BDO player(s) given spots in various PDC majors I really can't see an issue, only positives.

[oche balboa]

having two tiers in darts.... seems so elitist and wrong IMO. Golf and Tennis is a Multi million pound tour and that deserves a two tier system, the thing is its been working weill darts up until now, the BDO need to improve to keep their players.

[oche balboa]

still at the end of it you have a system with a capacity of 150ish.
The BDO county system alone totally outweighs this. So at some point you would have to have a Qschool with 100's of disappointed players.
Just doesn't make sense yet. Someone on either side has to come up with a better plan if both codes can work together otherwise i see this continuing.

and Murphio you are forgetting that the Lakeside 32 could probably compete with any of the last 64 in the tour so your argument doesn't make sense.
We have to have a unified field then it has to be the best otherwise we're back to where we are now.

What's the downside of having the PDC as the place for the elite 128 players, the BDO pretty much in place as now, but with the two organisations working together? I'm struggling to see your point about the BDO county system having more than 150ish players. If they're good enough and want to play top end darts they would either be cherry picked by the PDC or qualify by right through the system/OOM established.

The BDO side of things can still have county, and larger fields, but it would just be seen officially as the second tier of darts.

For me, relegation and promotion is the way forward. You can't have one system that looks after everyone. It's kind of a reason the Premier League was established in football. There has to be tiers.

Elite (Premier League = PDC)
Second Tier (Football League = BDO)

Rather than competing against each other, have clearly defined goals. BDO to bring through talent to the PDC, PDC to provide for the elite and support the BDO in nurturing this talent. As long as the BDO remains with a profile, for example Masters and Lakeside still on TV and the top BDO player(s) given spots in various PDC majors I really can't see an issue, only positives.

Promotion and relegation is a poor idea to be fair and has no place for top level darts, people should be free to make a choice of going to the PDC.

[oche balboa]

oh and the Premier League was not formed because of that reason Hotspur, it was formed because clubs wanted more TV Money.... there were tiers in place before 1992

[TheSportsDean]

oh and the Premier League was not formed because of that reason Hotspur, it was formed because clubs wanted more TV Money.... there were tiers in place before 1992

I'm aware that tiers were in place, however, the Premier League is a breakaway from the football league - yet they work together. There's transparency.

I hold my hands up and say OK TV money was the overriding factor - however the Premier League is elitist and separate from the football League, but same rules and they work together. The ultimate goal for any club below the Premier League is to be in the Premier League. Surely in sport you should want to be part of the elite, that should be the goal. The PDC is the elite, the Premier League and you shouldn't just be able to walk in, hence the new tour card. The Q school is where you prove yourself now, in the future why not relegation and promotion like other sports?

You also can't just say - it can't happen because it's not Tennis or whatever. You need to have better arguments against such a system. Why couldn't it work. The prize money flying around, TV money flying around, Sponsorship money flying around tells me that Darts is a multimillion pound industry. It's not a pub game any longer, it's a sport watched by millions where you can earn hundreds of thousands in a year, and millions in a lifetime.

Should the thousands of players all just play in the same organisation without any defined tiers? That seems crazy.

[Mack]

having two tiers in darts.... seems so elitist and wrong IMO. Golf and Tennis is a Multi million pound tour and that deserves a two tier system, the thing is its been working weill darts up until now, the BDO need to improve to keep their players.

But sport is elitist. Name a sport where any one from any background can compete? Snooker has it, pool has it. There are at a similar level to darts.

Darts will never move forward to the level of tennis or golf unless people realise darts for all does not mean darts for all in our system. Thats why pyramid structures are in place in most established sports. The cream will always rise to the top.

[TheSportsDean]

In the past I've even complained that the top BDO players shouldn't have to go through the massive fields that they do. Whilst the Masters seeding solution wasn't exactly what I would have had in mind (maybe seeds come in earlier much like the Premier League/Championship teams in the FA Cup, but later than they do at the Masters) it was a good decision to make sure that the elite who mostly would come through shouldn't have to fight with the lower ranked players.

Darts is too antiquated and needs to change at the top level. There are just so many reasons for change. The only reasons against are that it's always been like it (doesn't always mean it's right) and, but what about the not so good players they can't play with the best (sob sob, you're not good enough or haven't proved it).

In almost anything in life you have to prove that you are good enough. Generally you don't walk into a top job without working beforehand and proving yourself. Those with exceptional talent may do so, there are always exceptions and in Darts that's where it may be slightly different from team sports. This is where discretionary wildcards come into play and the PDC should be able to cherry pick some players. Still, they must have proved themselves somehow, showed great potential.

I think that darts needs some young heads behind the scenes and modern changes. This it's always been like this and can't change attitude is very negative. Nothing would ever improve if we all thought that way.

[Murphio]

and Murphio you are forgetting that the Lakeside 32 could probably compete with any of the last 64 in the tour so your argument doesn't make sense.
We have to have a unified field then it has to be the best otherwise we're back to where we are now.

Nope, Nikki's closed shop post was on the assumption that there was one world championship. I also added into my into my post 'if the BDO disappeared'. Were the Ally Pally to become the sole world championship it would be no more a closed shop than any other route to the top in any other sport. It's a load of old cobblers and is the final fig leaf for the 'darts for all crowd'.

[Booji Boy]

One world title will soon be upon us.

Made up from a worldwide pool of around 150 players, some world championship.

Hundreds tried to qualify in Australia and that is just one country I looked at.

You are still talking cack.

[Deleted User]

It's still poorly organised, the money is falling behind the PDC, far less television coverage (and again that means money for the players) and now Wolfie in charge. If I was an ambitious young pro, I know whic organisation I'd be in.

'Nuff said.

Druid

[skudlooking]

Martin Adams and the new board had a great chance this year to put a team in place to work with bbc and espn to make sure everything ran smoothly, things like match times break times in matches make sure players! (and officials) were preped before being a pundit. new stage and walk on area with a new m.o.c. with o'shea, fitton,hankey they had entertainers. but again they fucked up like always because they are backwards lazy and stupid


BACKWARDS DETERIORATING ORGANISATION

[Garethwill]

The bdo is gone. I feel sorry for the players, some quality players there it is just run badly

[druid]

One thing I haven't read in this thread is what will happen to the payouts for the WC? If they continue to lose tv coverage,( I am assuming that the bulk of the prize money comes from this sponsorship ) how can they pay out the prize monies to the players? I disagree with the top heavy aspect of the current format, but that aside, the BDO would essentially bankrupt itself trying to keep the monies up to attempt to keep the players in their stable and not jumping ship as it were. While some have talked about a system whereby the BDO would serve as a secondary system that essentially feeds the PDC, I can see some merit in this. How it would look in the big picture would need some serious thought, but the relegation idea would work I believe as it would allow players to develop while offering decent monies from a lesser prize fund. As players improve, they would be rewarded with payouts from getting to the business end of tourneys, and this in turn would allow them to build the funds to eventually / hopefully join the pro tour. As the BDO is part of the WDF ( or vice versa ) this would also allow players from other countries access to a new system, which may in turn improve the numbers from a global player base. This couldn't hurt the sport of darts, nor hurt the BDO. More players paying into a system would generate more monies for that system to expand. Playoffs could be staged for major tourneys which again would increase opportunities for players. I hope the BDO doesn't disintegrate as it still can retain its place as the building blocks for the sport....but if it tries to compete with the PDC I think it will only bury itself with ignorance and incompetence.

[ChrisW]

One thing I haven't read in this thread is what will happen to the payouts for the WC? If they continue to lose tv coverage,( I am assuming that the bulk of the prize money comes from this sponsorship ) how can they pay out the prize monies to the players? I disagree with the top heavy aspect of the current format, but that aside, the BDO would essentially bankrupt itself trying to keep the monies up to attempt to keep the players in their stable and not jumping ship as it were. While some have talked about a system whereby the BDO would serve as a secondary system that essentially feeds the PDC, I can see some merit in this. How it would look in the big picture would need some serious thought, but the relegation idea would work I believe as it would allow players to develop while offering decent monies from a lesser prize fund. As players improve, they would be rewarded with payouts from getting to the business end of tourneys, and this in turn would allow them to build the funds to eventually / hopefully join the pro tour. As the BDO is part of the WDF ( or vice versa ) this would also allow players from other countries access to a new system, which may in turn improve the numbers from a global player base. This couldn't hurt the sport of darts, nor hurt the BDO. More players paying into a system would generate more monies for that system to expand. Playoffs could be staged for major tourneys which again would increase opportunities for players. I hope the BDO doesn't disintegrate as it still can retain its place as the building blocks for the sport....but if it tries to compete with the PDC I think it will only bury itself with ignorance and incompetence.

Thought they gave TV coverage away free.