Suggestion for the women's game on TV

[and the Iron Fist]

I had a lot of admiration tonight for Stacy Bromburg and Tricia Wright for the graceful and dignified way they conducted themselves in a really difficult situation. Clearly, they struggled terribly with their game in an unfamiliar and highly pressurized situation but they bore it very well and Stacy's interaction with the crowd in particular was very good.

But that said, it clearly was poor fare for television. Women's darts won't get anywhere on television with matches like that. Now, I know that the problem isn't that the ladies can't play better than they did in Blackpool but that they don't have television experience or much experience of playing under big pressure in front of so many people. Unfortunately though, matches like that will only help keep them off television, thus creating a vicious cycle - the ladies game isn't for the most part of a good enough standard yet to make good television and so TV companies don't want to show it... but it can't get any better unless they do. So how to resolve this situation?

My opinion is that rather than just presenting women's darts as an inferior version of men's darts and hoping that somehow it catches on we need to come up with a format that suits them better on tv.

My idea: Why not play 301?

Watching a string of legs over 30 darts is very poor tv - not just uninteresting but actually uncomfortable viewing. As Rod Studd pointed out in commentary - the scoring phase was almost pointless because without any consistency it's just going to come down to who finds the double first anyway;140s weren't really helping at all because they were followed by 26s and 45s, meaning that the opponent doesn't actually fall behind at all plodding along with 60s. Cutting that scoring phase in half would really help make the games more exciting: a big score would count for a lot more and slower legs wouldn't drag so much. That in turn would decrease the pressure on the participants that they must feel knowing there's a bored and potentially derisory crowd getting impatient behind them.

Another thing is that both last night and when I have watched ladies matches at other times the doubling is much better than the scoring. There were a few nice 2 dart checkouts even in this poor match, and other than the odd nervy pressure leg doubles were cleaned up in 2 or 3 darts. Putting the emphasis on this part of the game would make for much more interesting viewing. Let's not see all of those scores of 36, let's watch a display of accurate finishing instead. It would present the women's game so much better. Let's not have them playing an inferior game to the men, let's have them playing the same game (the same skill) but with a different emphasis - give ladies darts it's own character.

Personally i'm not old enough to remember any 301 events on tv, although i'm sure there must have been some. It could really help give the ladies game its own flavour. Imagine the first ever perfect 6 dart finish on TV (I don't know if that would actually be the case but who would know different?)... it would be a great moment, something to hype and talk about, a great moment in darts and it would happen in the women's game. How great would that be?

I'm not suggesting that they should play this format forever. Once the ladies have more experience on tv and the all round quality of their game rises, which it inevitably would, then they can gradually change to 501. But as it stands at the moment ladies 501 just isn't suitable for tv and will never work commercially.

I hope my suggestion doesn't seem patronizing; that isn't my intent. It's just about being realistic and trying to think how women's darts could work for tv. You can't just put bad games on and hope the public sits still for it. In tennis the women play a shorter game than the men and with a different style (more finesse, less brute force); why not in darts?

Equally there's no point in lambasting the PDC / BDO or Sky / BBC for their treatment of womens darts because in their position I would reluctantly do the same thing; they have to worry about the product they're presenting and give the audience something they want to see. And I don't think the audience enjoys seeing 501 played with averages in the 70s or worse. It just isn't a good spectacle.

For women's events on tv why not try 301?

[ChrisW]

no definitely not you're point is very good but if you start this way you are saying they are not capable of producing the darts to entertain.
I have seen ladies produce better darts than what we saw tonight in my local. They are all out there.

The one thing the womens game needs is more and more of this . It may take time but come on this is the PDC's first attempt.
Look at the averages of the PDC when it was first set up compared to now.

This is a new initaitive. Probably not how they wanted it to turn out but hey hey.
Anastasia v Trina would have been a very diferent story.

Hoenselaar and Gulliver have both produced averages beating many mens performances in World championships so why should they take a step back to 301?

[and the Iron Fist]

The one thing the womens game needs is more and more of this . It may take time but come on this is the PDC's first attempt.
Look at the averages of the PDC when it was first set up compared to now.

I agree with you that more TV exposure is all that's needed but they simply won't get it unless the format is made more enjoyable. Sky were clearly ultra-reluctant to show the match at all and unfortunately their worst fears were borne out. So why not be proactive? As i said, i'm not suggesting it as an idea for forever, but as a short-term vehicle for showing people that ladies darts can be enjoyable.

[ChrisW]

the real issue was tonight that probably the wrong two were on the stage.
That is not disrespecting either as they are both faniastic players.

But if we could have had two major female players who have stage experience i think you would not be here making you're point.

Same as when new male players first come on the stage and underperform.

[and the Iron Fist]

the real issue was tonight that probably the wrong two were on the stage.
That is not disrespecting either as they are both faniastic players.

But if we could have had two major female players who have stage experience i think you would not be here making you're point.

Same as when new male players first come on the stage and underperform.

You could have had any two of the top lady players up there and there would have been a good chance of seeing two of the lowest averages of the week. That's unfortunate but honest.

At the moment all the general public sees of womens darts is that it is the same as mens darts but poorer. How on Earth do you market that? Maybe if the players were all glamorous but they're not. I'm sure there are some great personalities but how would we know? We never see them.

I should point out that I don't see 301 as a poorer version of darts, just as double start isn't an inferior form of darts, just as clay tennis isn't inferior to grass, just as television isn;t inferior to film - it's just different, emphasizing different aspects of the game. It's the same skill. Hell, i'd like to see a men's 301 tournament. Variety is good for the game generally. Why not try and capitalize on that with the ladies game?

[ChrisW]

That's just factually incorrect as Hoenselaar Gulliver and Dombromislova have all averaged higher than some of the men in the 1st round of this competition. Most women lets face it have only had one chance at showing their potential on the screen and that has been at the lakeside and the
qualifying restrictions means that most will also never get the chance.

So the top women who regularly do get the chance are averaging in 70 to high 80's. I think Hoenselaar once made 90 in a dutch tv comp.
And you are saying they are not capeable of producing a good tv match? We have seen many mens matches in the 80's dull as. But do we ask them to start playing 301?

[Rudy]

Like I wrote in the other thread, the ladies need a real competition. Not the most extended one, but why not play the quarters, semi's also on stage before -and not after !!!!!!!!- the men's event? The early stages of the tournament could then still be held at Barnsley or wherever else.

The quarters at Barnsley were, of course:
Fiona Carmichael 4-2 Deta Hedman
Tricia Wright 4-2 Sharon O’Brien
Stacy Bromberg 4-2 Denise Cassidy
Anastasia Dobromyslova 4-3 Sabrina Sporle

Who knows which ladies would have progressed from there should these matches have been staged in front of the TV camera's. I guess Ana and Deta would have had a practical advantage over the rest then.

301? I think the ladies would not like it, let alone be able to perform it on stage because of the different finishing strategy of 301 they're not accustomed to- and think they might experience it as a bit humiliating as if they can't do 501 properly.

[ralph cifaretto]

301? I think the ladies would not like it, let alone be able to perform it on stage because of the different finishing strategy of 301 they're not accustomed to- and think they might experience it as a bit humiliating as if they can't do 501 properly.

But like the other guy was saying about the tennis analogy. Women only play 3 sets compared to 5 for the men. Male darts players play 501, women 301, they shouldnt feel patronised, they're not as good. Venus Williams would lose to Andy Murray the majority of matches, true.

[checkmate]

having given some thought to this after reading the two threads, i think a good way to introduce the womens game and also take some pressure off the women would be to either introduce a mixed pairs comp which could be shown on the bbc or add a lady to the up coming world cup teams based on present rankings for those who wished to play as some probably won't.......

[chop]

You should also take into account the men you see on tv are not only experianced in tv but also in preparing for one off matches, remember ladies in question play events where you start at 10am in morning and finish at 7pm playing up to 7 matches, very hard to change for a one off game at 10.30 at nite with the added pressure of people watching expecting them to fail,and feeling they were representing the ladies game as a whole, phil and barney don't have that they just want it for themselves, both ladies said it was more important to put on a good show in the circumstances I think they done ok

[avalon]

301? I think the ladies would not like it, let alone be able to perform it on stage because of the different finishing strategy of 301 they're not accustomed to- and think they might experience it as a bit humiliating as if they can't do 501 properly.

But like the other guy was saying about the tennis analogy. Women only play 3 sets compared to 5 for the men. Male darts players play 501, women 301, they shouldnt feel patronised, they're not as good. Venus Williams would lose to Andy Murray the majority of matches, true.

That is not an accurate comparison. The ladies already play a shorter format in darts than the men, if you wanted a comparison with darts then you are saying the ladies would play... 15 love, 30 love, game, instead of 15, 30, 40 game which the lady tennis players would refuse to play.

To me there were a number of things affecting the ladies standard yesterday, 1. lack of experience, can be cured by giving the ladies more chances in the future, 2. The pressure of having to perform to show how good they ( and ladies in general ) can play, the prize moeny, the title, again cured by giving them more chances, 3. The last round of this event was SIX weeks ago, so they had six weeks to think about the final, what it means to them, what it means to others, and they went straight into a final totally cold, can be cured by playing the event on the same day as the final.... it doesnt have to be all on stage but they could play the last 16 or 8 somewhere else in the venue and then the final on stage.

[chop]

Well said! And Avalon has been around ladies darts longer than me , he knows they can all get 30aves and have done this year and in the past, irinas semi at german was such a case if that had been shown on tv the people who have been slagging off the ladies would have been raving about them

[Rudy]

I agree the 6 weeks time lap has a somewhat alienating effect, John. There should indeed be a physical and geographical link between the qualification and the main tournament, such as at the IDL at the time.

What's Irena's opinion about last night's ladies performances and her ideas about possible improvements, John?

[avalon]

I agree the 6 weeks time lap has a somewhat alienating effect, John. There should indeed be a physical and geographical link between the qualification and the main tournament, such as at the IDL at the time.

What's Irena's opinion about last night's ladies performances and her ideas about possible improvements, John?

Irina didnt see the game last night as she was in a hotel in england without sky but I kept her uptodate with what was happening and she is gutted for Tricia and also for the overall performances but can fully understand the the pressure both ladies were under. I havent discussed with her yet what needs to be changed to ensure a better chance of performing well but I would hazard a guess she would say pretty much the same as me.

Chop is right about ladies overall... there are quite a few who can and do throw over 30 averages and not just occasionally either.

I just wonder what it would be like to take 2 guys who have no TV experience at all, there must be quite a few in the PDC OoM, give them a match of best of 11 in front of last nights crowd and let them know weeks before hand that the future of darts on TV is pretty much in their hands, then tell them the date has changed and that they must play after Taylor has put on a masterclass show and they are going to be judged by 100s of 1000s of people worldwide on how they throw.


I wonder if they would produce their best darts

[Dave33]

I agree the 6 weeks time lap has a somewhat alienating effect, John. There should indeed be a physical and geographical link between the qualification and the main tournament, such as at the IDL at the time.

What's Irena's opinion about last night's ladies performances and her ideas about possible improvements, John?

Irina didnt see the game last night as she was in a hotel in england without sky but I kept her uptodate with what was happening and she is gutted for Tricia and also for the overall performances but can fully understand the the pressure both ladies were under. I havent discussed with her yet what needs to be changed to ensure a better chance of performing well but I would hazard a guess she would say pretty much the same as me.

Chop is right about ladies overall... there are quite a few who can and do throw over 30 averages and not just occasionally either.

I just wonder what it would be like to take 2 guys who have no TV experience at all, there must be quite a few in the PDC OoM, give them a match of best of 11 in front of last nights crowd and let them know weeks before hand that the future of darts on TV is pretty much in their hands, then tell them the date has changed and that they must play after Taylor has put on a masterclass show and they are going to be judged by 100s of 1000s of people worldwide on how they throw.


I wonder if they would produce their best darts

[chop]

game set and match to avalon!! this website has been full of posts criticizing df over posts slagging of players and organizations after reading posts on the womens champs perhaps you should get your own house in order, some of the points made about trish and stacey have been downright insulting, i expect it on df but thought this was meant to be the vouice of reason in forum land

[The Crusader]

the real issue was tonight that probably the wrong two were on the stage.
That is not disrespecting either as they are both faniastic players.

How can probably the wrong two be there, they won their place and that is that, it is ok saying Ana would have done this and that but the fact's are she never qualified.

Spud no disrespect to Ana meant.

[hang the dj]

The match was incredibly bad, poor averages & not so good finishing led to a poor quality match.

I accept what a lot of people have said on here & both ladies can play a lot better bur I think the way Sky will look at it is -a lot of their viewers only watch the TV tournaments, they don't follow the floor events & probably a lot are unaware a women's game even exists so last night would've been their first experience of the women's game & it was not a good advertisement. The feedback I'm sure Sky will be receiving from this type of fan is that the women's game was embarrassingly bad & they have no interest in watching it again.

In my opinion I would like to see the PDC continue with women's darts & see where it can go

[hang the dj]

the real issue was tonight that probably the wrong two were on the stage.
That is not disrespecting either as they are both faniastic players.

How can probably the wrong two be there, they won their place and that is that, it is ok saying Ana would have done this and that but the fact's are she never qualified.

Spud no disrespect to Ana meant.

I can understand both points here, yes these 2 women qualified so were the rightful participants in the final but if it had been Ana v Deta (which I'm sure the PDC were hoping for) I believe the quality would've been much higher as both Ana & Deta are more experienced playing in front of bigger crowds & also on TV

[Offline]

game set and match to avalon!! this website has been full of posts criticizing df over posts slagging of players and organizations after reading posts on the womens champs perhaps you should get your own house in order, some of the points made about trish and stacey have been downright insulting, i expect it on df but thought this was meant to be the vouice of reason in forum land

The posts on here were mild compared to df at least on here it was only the players ability and perfromance on the night that came under scrutiny, and I have already posted my feelings on that.
For you to come on and criticise the posters on this site when the posts on df were far far worse and yet Deta wears a patch publicising that forum is a bit of double standards I think.