Unicorn's new signing

[Texas ColdShot]

I would rather see mnfg invest in tournaments and pro series of events instead of players . I think this would have a bigger impact on growing the game within the USA, than sponsoring individuals. We don't have a true group of pro players so the return on individual sponsorship is low to zero. Until an American decides to go to UK to be full time pro money targeted at usa market better spent on growing the game at participation level.

I agree that investment in tournaments and pro series events would greatly enhance the potential for USA players to have an impact on professional darts, with a corresponding effect on expanding professional darts globally.
However, considering the size of the market, I was surprised to find that, of the 34 players comprising Team Unicorn, the biggest name in darts didn't include a single player from the USA, North America, or anywhere in the Western Hemisphere.

[Edward Lowy]

Unicorn are going to announce a new signing soon. What's the odds on a few players?

MvG - hottest property at the mo behind Taylor.

Ross Smith - up and coming just won second tier tour

Jamie Wilson - having a good year in BDO

Soft tip player - trying to get a foot in that market.

Yes I'm bored lol.

Unicorn not really interested in soft tip is the answer we have had.

Harrows, Traget and Winmau seem to be the UK companies interested in it

Say what? When did we give you that impression Mr BC?

Kind regards

Edward

The e-mail we received from you back in April.

What email? Could you email me! Thanks

[Edward Lowy]

Congratulations to Michael Smith.

Dear Unicorn,

Just curious, how much in annual sales is derived from the USA market?
Any thought of adding a USA dart player to Team Unicorn?

Hi Tex. We sell many hundreds of thousands of sets of darts in the US. Have done since the early 1950's. However, the vast majority of these (95+ % say) are sold in outlets where I am sad to say that the players are unknown and do not generate sales.

Kind regards

Edward

Appreciate the response, as well as confirmation of what I assumed to be millions of dollars in sales of Unicorn product in the USA market.

We miss the days of the late, great Barry Twomlow when there seemed to be more support of the USA dart community from Unicorn. Best of luck for your continued success, and hoping for a more active role in support of USA darts and players in the future.

Thank you for your kind words, we miss Barry greatly too! He travelled to the USA & Canada hundreds of times however times were different - there was a vibrant tournament circuit with some decent money in North America, run essentially by American entrepreneurs. In later years - let's say the last 15, the PDC have invested substantial sums of money in North America but it has not catalysed sufficient local activity to make the investment worthwhile.

In terms of Unicorn and investment outside of players, we invested in starting the PDC 20 years ago, and continue to do so.
The Unicorn PDC Youth Tour is another example of that.

Kind regards

Edward

[Texas ColdShot]

It seems clear that the PDC's past investment in North America was motivated by an interest in expanding their product into the North American market without necessarily much of an interest in the viable participation of North American players within the PDC system. I'm not sure that it can be argued that, thus far, any of the other investments and attempts by the PDC to expand beyond the market in Great Britian have been any more worthwhile than their previous efforts to gain access to the North American market.
It seems even more clear that the actions and investments of the PDC in recent years have been primarily motivated by an interest in maintaining British hegemony over the sport of professional darts.

I did not realize that Unicorn's relationship with the PDC had resulted in Unicorn sharing similar interests and goals. I imagine that will also come as at least somewhat surprising news to the North American darting community.

[Zeyes]

It seems even more clear that the actions and investments of the PDC in recent years have been primarily motivated by an interest in maintaining British hegemony over the sport of professional darts.

In other words, you'd like the US market to partake of the PDC's largesse but only on American terms? Good luck with that. I know I've said that before, but the US just ain't that important in darts anymore. Get your local orgs and players to get their own house in order first.

[Texas ColdShot]

It seems even more clear that the actions and investments of the PDC in recent years have been primarily motivated by an interest in maintaining British hegemony over the sport of professional darts.

In other words, you'd like the US market to partake of the PDC's largesse but only on American terms? Good luck with that. I know I've said that before, but the US just ain't that important in darts anymore. Get your local orgs and players to get their own house in order first.

I said nothing of the sort.
If what you mean by "...the US just ain't that important in darts anymore." is in reference to PDC darts, I would have to agree.
However, by that standard, who would be of any importance outside of the British and Dutch?

[Booji Boy]

I think the usa is very important to the pdc. Hence why they have set up a tour there.

But for whatever reason the players just dont seem to attend en masse. Is it location, is it lack of desire, is it lack of advertising on the part of the pdc?

[Ginge]

I think the usa is very important to the pdc. Hence why they have set up a tour there.

But for whatever reason the players just dont seem to attend en masse. Is it location, is it lack of desire, is it lack of advertising on the part of the pdc?

The size of the country is probably the biggest factor.

[Zeyes]

I think the usa is very important to the pdc. Hence why they have set up a tour there.

But for whatever reason the players just dont seem to attend en masse. Is it location, is it lack of desire, is it lack of advertising on the part of the pdc?

That's pretty much what I was getting at. Sure, the market per se is important, but if there's no stateside interest in delivering anything in return that the PDC (or Unicorn) are interested in, what's the point in dumping money into it?

I'm actually reminded of the BDO/GSOD issue...looks very much like another old guard who's simply content to take what's offered but with little ambition to help in turning it into more.

No surprise that arguably the highest-profile player with an American connection is Paul Lim nowadays, and a) he's promoting soft-tip instead of steel, and b) he's doing it for a non-US company.

[Stubby]

For darts to work in the states - you need each individual state to have it's own organisation rather than one for the country.

As been said before the size of the country is a major factor. Mainland Europe going to Wigan every other week is nothing compared to New Yorkers being expected to go to Vegas regulary

[The Jolly Man]

I think the usa is very important to the pdc. Hence why they have set up a tour there.

But for whatever reason the players just dont seem to attend en masse. Is it location, is it lack of desire, is it lack of advertising on the part of the pdc?

I think some of it is the uncertainty over the BDO ruling so the few that were chasing points were not interested in the PDC events.

If you look at the New World Darts events that are part of the series they seem to have a good formula and think they will get 128+ players at there 2nd event of the year.

[Texas ColdShot]

I think the usa is very important to the pdc. Hence why they have set up a tour there.

But for whatever reason the players just dont seem to attend en masse. Is it location, is it lack of desire, is it lack of advertising on the part of the pdc?

Briefly, here are some of the reasons why there hasn't been greater participation thus far. Although, hundreds of North American players have participated.

The winner of each event now receives $2,200.
Final 16 pays $200.
Entry fee into each event is $100 for PDPA members. $110 for non-members.
The Order of Merit is based on a 2-year running total.
Current OoM leader is Darin Young at $14,000. 2nd is Larry Butler at $9,700. 11th in the OoM is Canadian Wayne Kelly at $2,200.
The PDC offers only 1 spot at Ally Pally.

The locations for this years North American Tour are (3) Canada, Chicago, Atlantic City, and Sacramento, California.
Anyone considering pursuing that 1 spot at Ally Pally would have to contend with the necessity of winning all 8 events to even have a chance of beginning to compete for that 1 spot.
With the possible exception of Chicago, none of those locations are within 2,000 miles of Dallas, Texas.
In fact, no PDC event has ever been held within 2,000 miles of Dallas with the exception of satellite tournaments held to qualify for the World Series of Darts back in 2006.
The same could be said for a very large portion of the United States.

Darts in the USA is an amateur sport. Nobody in the US is paying any of their bills by playing darts, including Darin Young. Darts, as an amateur sport, is very popular throughout the US. There are Men's 501 tournaments with 100 or more entrants taking place somewhere in the US virtually every weekend. Yes, they are played for money, but nowhere near the amount of money needed to sustain anything like a professional career, even on a part-time basis.
There is an effort currently to develop professional darts to an extent where US players are able to travel to Great Britian to compete. After putting faith in what turned out to be the failed efforts and promises of the PDC, the current effort is more grassroots based, including some of the same entrepreneurs mentioned earlier who developed big money darts previously in the US.

What is needed is more money from more sponsors. The going is slow, as it always is in the beginning, and probably in no small part due to the current economy. However, the track-record for the USA in this regard is such to provide optimism that, at some point, there will be Americans coming over to get PDC money and titles. Perhaps it will also lead to PDC players coming over here again to try and get American money and titles.
Time will tell.
The importance of darts hasn't disappeared from the US. It never will. We love darts. It's just played differently now than in the past, and differently than it will be played here in the future.

[Edward Lowy]

It seems clear that the PDC's past investment in North America was motivated by an interest in expanding their product into the North American market without necessarily much of an interest in the viable participation of North American players within the PDC system. I'm not sure that it can be argued that, thus far, any of the other investments and attempts by the PDC to expand beyond the market in Great Britian have been any more worthwhile than their previous efforts to gain access to the North American market.

The PDC's investment was intended to be a call for action to US players and US based organisers. The response to be quite honest was disappointing. Yes, there are the issues of geography etc but there do not seem to be enough players who are prepared to take steel tip darts seriously enough. Perhaps the PDC's pitch was wrong but after burning through the thick end of £1 million in the US with nothing tangible to show, we felt enough was enough. We would love to be part of a thriving US darts scene and remain very happy to listen for opportunities.

It seems even more clear that the actions and investments of the PDC in recent years have been primarily motivated by an interest in maintaining British hegemony over the sport of professional darts.

Complete nonsense.

I did not realize that Unicorn's relationship with the PDC had resulted in Unicorn sharing similar interests and goals. I imagine that will also come as at least somewhat surprising news to the North American darting community.

Where did that come from? I'm not entirely sure what you mean but I am guessing it is not a compliment. Tell me more, I'm a little stale as I haven't been in the USA since last Friday.

Kind regards

Edward

[Zeyes]

What is needed is more money from more sponsors.

That's always what it comes down to, isn't it? If the US is such a deserving market, where are all the US-based sponsors? Surely the rich tradition that darts has in the USA could easily persuade local companies even if the Brits are too ignorant to understand it?

On another note, I wonder who's supposed to blame for a well-thought out bottom-up approach like fotoman's Major League Darts dying on its arse due to lack of support.

[Zeyes]

One last post from me because this is unlikely to lead anywhere good: Texas ColdShot, I can't help it, I get exactly the same vibe from your posts that I did a year or so ago when we had much the same merry go-around - namely that you think the US (steel) darts scene is somehow entitled to be looked at as a major business opportunity for upper-level darts, even though it has done absolutely nothing to warrant such an assessment for the last 10+ years. Time for US players to stop waiting for British handouts and get something going on their own if the market is so great.

(I know, I know, they've no need for that - they're getting Dartslive handouts instead now...)

[Texas ColdShot]

One last post from me because this is unlikely to lead anywhere good: Texas ColdShot, I can't help it, I get exactly the same vibe from your posts that I did a year or so ago when we had much the same merry go-around - namely that you think the US (steel) darts scene is somehow entitled to be looked at as a major business opportunity for upper-level darts, even though it has done absolutely nothing to warrant such an assessment for the last 10+ years. Time for US players to stop waiting for British handouts and get something going on their own if the market is so great.

(I know, I know, they've no need for that - they're getting Dartslive handouts instead now...)

Just as well, I have no real desire to engage with you the type of "merry go-around" you seem to prefer.
I'm sorry for the "vibe" you get, but I believe that's on you. Nothing I've ever said has ever been intended to mean a desire for "British handouts", as you call it. I have discussed investments in various contexts, but you don't seem to be able to grasp the concept.

[cannibal]

Thanks Edward Lowy for your input on this thread. It is always nice to have an "insiders" view on these issues. I think one of the most salient points in your responses is "...there are the issues of geography etc but there do not seem to be enough players who are prepared to take steel tip darts seriously enough." Yes the U.S. dart market is a tough nut to crack for a host of reasons but the key ingredient needed for any plan to work is a required mass of "serious players" (I would add to that serious contenders) is lacking. Unfortunately in the U.S. the approach to darts vis a vis the ADO has resulted in establishing a culture of darts as an amateur past time with no path to a serious semi pro or pro sport. The action (or inaction in this case) of the top players themselves has further ingrained this stagnation. Part of this inaction is due in part to the top players don't agree on what is best for themselves as a group. Those involved in organizing darts here to be honest most of them just don't have any business acumen or a basic understanding of how to create incentives for darters to show up at tournaments at any level.

I applaud the PDC desire to bring its product to the U.S. I certainly hope that the PDC will continue to invest in the USA and find an approach that will work here. If the PDC had come to me in a professional capacity as an economist, I would have told them to run and don't look back the USA market is not ready for Pro level darts. I would say if you want to crack a new market then Asia is your place it has a dart culture already (in a sense soft tip), and it has the same upside for long term growth, profit potential, and standard of play. There are a bunch more really good reasons to go to Asia as well.

The PDC needs to find a way to mesh the current USA dart culture with its own desires; which I am assuming is to create a sustainable Pro group of players and tour hopefully leading to access to televised darts here. This approach is something in the middle of what the PDC has already done and what MLD (Major league darts) attempted to do and to a lesser extent what NWDS (New World Dart Series) is doing. The MLD attempted to set up quality regional events that would feed into a larger National event. In addition they provided more money for the darts weekend in a long format that created the right incentives for both the top level shooters as well as the rest to attend tournaments. MLD needed time and money in order to change the culture of the ADO best of 3 and lots of rubbish events such as mixed triples, crickets, etc.....

On my soapbox now: The current situation of the MLD, a large portion of the blame lies at the feet of the top shooters. They didn't or don't realize that MLD approach is the way forward for creating a higher standard of the game, creates incentives for reduced costs of travel, sorts thru who is a top shooter, and helps create a system where aspiring amateurs can improve. Instead the top shooters decided they would do what they have always done just show up take the money and run. Until the top shooters get organized, start creating the type of events they claim they want, get their own sponsors to get behind those events, they will continue to get what they have now. What do they have now, the ADO and a few invites to the Masters, and Lakeside, all of which offer crap money and diminished prestigious titles.

[Bag Carrier]

Dartslive don't seem to be struggling in the US, growing and growing from what I see and hear.

Maybe this is the way for darts in the US and not steel tip. Pretty much the same in Asia.

[cannibal]

Dartslive don't seem to be struggling in the US, growing and growing from what I see and hear.

Maybe this is the way for darts in the US and not steel tip. Pretty much the same in Asia.

I certainly hope not as in my mind steel tip darts is the standard. Soft tip tho it is darts is a totally different game and lets be honest is a simplified version of steel tip darts. So at the bottom end it will attract newbies to the game. The best darters in the world are in the steel game and for that reason the best players or those striving to compete with the best should be in the steel game.

Dartslive is new and is the beneficiary of being the "new thing" as well as the players dissatisfaction with the established vendors and how they run tournaments. Give it a year or 2 when the new luster wears off and lets see what their long term impact on the growth of the sport will be.

[Zeyes]

Dartslive's business model is a different one anyway, they rely on thousands of low-level players feeding the machines, not sponsors or ticket sales. And the tournament payouts are a pittance compared to Dartslive's revenues...those "pro" tournaments just serve as cheap advertising to reel in the machine-feeders.

Haven't seen recent numbers for the PDC, but three or four years ago something like 60% of their revenues were paid back out as prize money to players, which is about the same level of "employee compensation" you see with the athletes in entities like the NFL or MLB. Dartslive appears to be well short of 10% from what I can tell.

(Amusing story: Dartslive even makes players feed the machines during official league matches for the pub league setup they're offering in Japan. Don't think I've heard of anything like that in European soft-tip leagues - the machine suppliers and location owners are usually happy enough to get those players in for plenty of practice sessions, so the league games are typically free play.)