The Caster Semenya Effect (well almost)

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nikkiboy
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The Caster Semenya Effect (well almost)

Post by nikkiboy » Thu May 02, 2019 1:05 pm

Hot on the heels of the discussions in other sports as to whether females like Caster Semenya who have a birth defect that makes them produce more testosterone and be physically stronger and faster than normal women coupled with the discussions on whether trans women should be allowed to compete in women's events.

In tennis they estimate that there are 200 men who are better than Serena Williams and remember in tennis they have equal prize monies.

I was wondering what we would think of the following scenario in darts:

A male BDO player ranked say 25-40 suddenly decides he will identify as a woman and starts to compete in all the ladies events, according to current equality laws he is quite entitled to do this in most sports. Now he wins every event he plays in including the Ladies Lakeside bagging a PDC invite to their WC at the same time (yes I know Lisa/Ana would beat him occassionally).

Would this be fair? right? possible?

Thoughts please, including that on tennis where the world number 199 switching could scoop a £1m Wimbledon coup.
Ginge wrote:the cancer has been cut from the BDO
21st April 2016 7:01am

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Ginge
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Re: The Caster Semenya Effect (well almost)

Post by Ginge » Thu May 02, 2019 1:08 pm

Absolutely fair because darts isnt a physical pursuit.

ILAD
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Re: The Caster Semenya Effect (well almost)

Post by ILAD » Thu May 02, 2019 1:10 pm

Ginge wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:08 pm
Absolutely fair because darts isnt a physical pursuit.
+1

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Re: The Caster Semenya Effect (well almost)

Post by 1205 » Thu May 02, 2019 1:29 pm

Ginge wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:08 pm
Absolutely fair because darts isnt a physical pursuit.
Agreed.

Separate male and female events aren't strictly necessary, and neither are much of the junior and senior competitive separation. The reasons for the separation are different to athletics and other physical games and sports.

Nobody complains about there being separate classifications in the Paralympics. This is the same.

If the physical traits were less binary (estimates of around 2% intersex, and there are often surgical interventions that change the physical effects), it would be less of an issue.

It should also be pointed out that a trans woman in a physical sport would lose most or all of the strength benefits of being born physically male. So, if a male pro tennis player transitioned it wouldn't guarantee success in the women's game.
Last edited by 1205 on Thu May 02, 2019 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Caster Semenya Effect (well almost)

Post by Buzz Fledderjohn » Thu May 02, 2019 1:34 pm

That may not matter. I seem to recall when all this Caster Semenya stuff was kicking off a couple of years ago, reading an article which suggested testosterone levels also had an effect on non-physical attributes, including hand eye co-ordination (which you can argue is actually a physical trait if you want).
If I recall correctly, at that time there was a certain amount of research which suggested this may be the case but there wasn't a sufficient body of evidence to "prove" it, for want of a better word.
I admit I've seen nothing further on this (and haven't gone looking for it to be fair), but it would go some way to explaining why someone like Lisa Ashton is reasonably dominant in her field, but struggles at QS / CT.

If more evidence does exist to suggest hand eye co-ordination can be effected by testosterone levels, then Nik's OP is perfectly valid, and can't just be summarily dismissed by saying "darts isn't a physical pursuit".

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Re: The Caster Semenya Effect (well almost)

Post by BlueSpark » Thu May 02, 2019 2:15 pm

Kudos to the PDC for thinking of this very scenario when structuring their system.
Visionary.
“Deluxe have put together a seriously good team behind this , who are used to events at the very top of British and international sports.
They are certainly not muppets and must truly believe the BDO is marketable”
Pauly 24/12/15

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nikkiboy
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Re: The Caster Semenya Effect (well almost)

Post by nikkiboy » Thu May 02, 2019 2:44 pm

1205 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:29 pm
Ginge wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:08 pm
Absolutely fair because darts isnt a physical pursuit.
Agreed.

Separate male and female events aren't strictly necessary, and neither are much of the junior and senior competitive separation. The reasons for the separation are different to athletics and other physical games and sports.

Nobody complains about there being separate classifications in the Paralympics. This is the same.

If the physical traits were less binary (estimates of around 2% intersex, and there are often surgical interventions that change the physical effects), it would be less of an issue.

It should also be pointed out that a trans woman in a physical sport would lose most or all of the strength benefits of being born physically male. So, if a male pro tennis player transitioned it wouldn't guarantee success in the women's game.
That bit is not true, it has been shown in studies that if you go through puberty as a male then you have a stronger bone structure, better hand to eye co-ordination and more strength than had you gone through puberty as a female hence the current Navratilova comments. In athletics they will insist that the athlete take testosterone suppressants for 6 months prior to being allowed to compete but the issue is that the body and muscles have already formed by then.
Ginge wrote:the cancer has been cut from the BDO
21st April 2016 7:01am

el_ringo
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Re: The Caster Semenya Effect (well almost)

Post by el_ringo » Thu May 02, 2019 2:51 pm

This has already happened

The 'lady' in question has played a few games at lakeside without winning one

but did recently captain the team that won the Ladies A BICC country title this last season.

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Re: The Caster Semenya Effect (well almost)

Post by Thehateful180 » Sat May 04, 2019 3:46 pm

Don't be giving DBG ideas...

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