The Politics Thread

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The Politics Thread

Post by Ginge » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:01 pm

There you go, lads. Carry on.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Booji Boy » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:24 pm

When is the deadline for q school entries?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Ginge » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:31 pm


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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Black Velvet » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:01 pm

:D

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by NvH » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:10 pm

Rout wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:54 pm

One thing is for sure, you've "fallen for" plenty.

Image
This is why it's always a waste of time. That graph is absolute horseshit, although there was a clue with the "Corbynator" thing at the bottom that it wasn't exactly going to be impartial. This isn't to say that the Conservatives aren't also guilty of wasting money, but the figures in that graph are absolute nonsense. Under the previous Labour govt, they borrowed over £320bn in the last three years.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Rout » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:17 pm

It isnt horseshit at all. Just as you say a big chunk came in the last few years. This thing called the financial crisis happened you see. Which was caused by super rich peopl, who then took taxpayers money to pay their bonuses once they had gambled the whole lot away.

Btw, I am not pro labour, or a "corbynite". I just find it laughable when people who are not ultra rich defend the party who's only concern is making the ultra rich richer under the guise of "the tories are the only ones that can be trusted with the economy" despite the fact that they have created 2/3rds of national debt.

But instead of asking the ultra rich to pay their correct share of tax so that public services can be fairly funded (or even any tax at all in many cases), let's pick on disabled people, blame everything on brown people who "look like letterboxes" (johnson quote) and cut ourselves off from the rest of the world. Bonanza!Image

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Skewball » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:27 pm


Rout wrote:It isnt horseshit at all. Just as you say a big chunk came in the last few years. This thing called the financial crisis happened you see. Which was caused by super rich peopl, who then took taxpayers money to pay their bonuses once they had gambled the whole lot away.

Btw, I am not pro labour, or a "corbynite". I just find it laughable when people who are not ultra rich defend the party who's only concern is making the ultra rich richer under the guise of "the tories are the only ones that can be trusted with the economy" despite the fact that they have created 2/3rds of national debt.

But instead of asking the ultra rich to pay their correct share of tax so that public services can be fairly funded (or even any tax at all in many cases), let's pick on disabled people, blame everything on brown people who "look like letterboxes" (johnson quote) and cut ourselves off from the rest of the world. Bonanza!Image
Christ, looking at that chart thank God labour got kicked out. You can see from the acceleration of the debt in those last couple of years of the labour govt how bad it would have got....

Thats how you actually read charts like that. It also tells us why many argue Austerity should have been deeper and should still be continuing. But hey what do I know , Ive got an economics degree....

Would help to know if the chart has been adjusted for inflation or not.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Rout » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:30 pm

Skewball wrote:
Rout wrote:It isnt horseshit at all. Just as you say a big chunk came in the last few years. This thing called the financial crisis happened you see. Which was caused by super rich peopl, who then took taxpayers money to pay their bonuses once they had gambled the whole lot away.

Btw, I am not pro labour, or a "corbynite". I just find it laughable when people who are not ultra rich defend the party who's only concern is making the ultra rich richer under the guise of "the tories are the only ones that can be trusted with the economy" despite the fact that they have created 2/3rds of national debt.

But instead of asking the ultra rich to pay their correct share of tax so that public services can be fairly funded (or even any tax at all in many cases), let's pick on disabled people, blame everything on brown people who "look like letterboxes" (johnson quote) and cut ourselves off from the rest of the world. Bonanza!Image
Christ, looking at that chart thank God labour got kicked out. You can see from the acceleration of the debt in those last couple of years of the labour govt how bad it would have got....

Thats how you actually read charts like that. It also tells us why many argue Austerity should have been deeper and should still be continuing. But hey what do I know , Ive got an economics degree....
I completely agree. The last labour government were just tory lites. There hasnt been a genuine left government in my lifetime and I am 39.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Skewball » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:33 pm

This is a better, impartial measure/chart.
I'm not passing judgement but just saying this is the way to look at it.
Whether its manageable and what direction it should go in the future is where useful and interesting debate takes place.
Not on here though. Image

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Skewball » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:36 pm

And finally, dont forget that the chart above shows when a government took over, you have to add about 2 years to what that government can actually effect. The year following an election is just a direct result of the previous government's actions.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Rout » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:42 pm

Skewball wrote:And finally, dont forget that the chart above shows when a government took over, you have to add about 2 years to what that government can actually effect. The year following an election is just a direct result of the previous government's actions.
So you dont think the sudden spike in 08 might have something to do with the second worst global financial crash of all time? Which happened in 08?

Getting very very rich people to pay the same rate of tax as poor or middle class people would be a decent start to arresting borrowing. They must laugh their tits off at how they can get people earning 20k a year to jump in front of bullets for them. Lighting King Edwards with 50's whilst setting fire to wheelchairs.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Skewball » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:58 pm

Rout wrote:
Skewball wrote:And finally, dont forget that the chart above shows when a government took over, you have to add about 2 years to what that government can actually effect. The year following an election is just a direct result of the previous government's actions.
So you dont think the sudden spike in 08 might have something to do with the second worst global financial crash of all time? Which happened in 08?

Getting very very rich people to pay the same rate of tax as poor or middle class people would be a decent start to arresting borrowing. They must laugh their tits off at how they can get people earning 20k a year to jump in front of bullets for them. Lighting King Edwards with 50's whilst setting fire to wheelchairs.
The problem was that the labour govt and the economy was completely unprepared for the crisis and after 15 years of unparalleled economic growth it had no reserves to cope. They just spent spent spent during the good times and taxed companies too high in the good times.

As for your second statement then sorry , I havent got the time to go through basic economics to you.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by NvH » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:09 pm

Rout wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:17 pm
It isnt horseshit at all. Just as you say a big chunk came in the last few years. This thing called the financial crisis happened you see. Which was caused by super rich peopl, who then took taxpayers money to pay their bonuses once they had gambled the whole lot away.

Btw, I am not pro labour, or a "corbynite". I just find it laughable when people who are not ultra rich defend the party who's only concern is making the ultra rich richer under the guise of "the tories are the only ones that can be trusted with the economy" despite the fact that they have created 2/3rds of national debt.

But instead of asking the ultra rich to pay their correct share of tax so that public services can be fairly funded (or even any tax at all in many cases), let's pick on disabled people, blame everything on brown people who "look like letterboxes" (johnson quote) and cut ourselves off from the rest of the world. Bonanza!Image
It is horseshit. The graph you posted suggested Labour had borrowed less money than the Tories in 1/4 of the time. That simply isn't true, although I concede that both parties are to blame for the national debt. The national debt grew by 54% under Thatcher (11 years). Under Blair and Brown it grew 187% in 13 years. You may not be a Corbynite, but you posted a graph without any context (which I assume came from one of his supporters) and from my research appears to be untrue.

I remember the financial crisis, as well as other economic downturns. Brown's borrowing was greater than in other recessions, even though I understood the need for it. But Brown himself has to take some responsibility for the crisis, because not every country was as badly affected as ours, neither did they take so long to recover. His main blunder was to set up the Financial Services Authority as soon as he became chancellor, which was a shame as his decision to hand control over interest rates to an independent Bank of England was an excellent decision.

What's more, he sold vast quantities of our gold reserves when the price was low, otherwise he would have borrowed even more ;)

It's true that Cameron's govt borrowed far too much, but look at the situation they inherited. The austerity measures were a little harsh, but something had/has to be done about the national debt. We can't just ignore it.

But just for reference, I'm no more a Brexiter than you are a Corbynite. I voted to remain, have no wish to pick on disabled people and am generally moderate. I'm also happy for rich people to pay taxes, but they've been finding loopholes for decades and not a single govt. has done anything about it, so I don't hold out too much hope. Labour had a policy in mind of lowering inheritance tax to £125,000, which is ridiculous when you consider the average house price now. How many houses can you buy for less than that?

However, I don't think there is anything wrong in a democracy for people to want tighter control of their borders. And there IS a problem with Islam, just have a look at the PEW polls conducted several years ago where a shocking % of people actually sympathised with ISIS, some were even in favour of honour killings for rape victims and that the punishment for apostasy should be death.

Now this isn't Saudi Arabia I'm talking about, but so-called beacons of the Islamic world, like Indonesia. It was an eye-opener, that's for sure, and it's why words like "Islamophobia" hold no water for me.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by NvH » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:19 pm

Oh and as for the second graph you posted above, note that the % increase in the debt is actually greater under Labour. It almost trebled under them and hasn't even doubled under the Conservatives.

And we won't isolate ourselves from the rest of the world. Yes, it's a massive mistake to leave the EU because if we ever want to rejoin we'd almost certainly have to accept the Lisbon Treaty, Euro, Schengen, etc. But Europe is not the world. Countries outside the EU do just fine. Norway and Switzerland don't seem to be suffering too much. The UK (apart from the devastation caused by two world wars) mostly did rather well before the EEC existed.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Rout » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:21 pm


NvH wrote:
Rout wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:17 pm
It isnt horseshit at all. Just as you say a big chunk came in the last few years. This thing called the financial crisis happened you see. Which was caused by super rich peopl, who then took taxpayers money to pay their bonuses once they had gambled the whole lot away.

Btw, I am not pro labour, or a "corbynite". I just find it laughable when people who are not ultra rich defend the party who's only concern is making the ultra rich richer under the guise of "the tories are the only ones that can be trusted with the economy" despite the fact that they have created 2/3rds of national debt.

But instead of asking the ultra rich to pay their correct share of tax so that public services can be fairly funded (or even any tax at all in many cases), let's pick on disabled people, blame everything on brown people who "look like letterboxes" (johnson quote) and cut ourselves off from the rest of the world. Bonanza!Image
The austerity measures were a little harsh, but something had/has to be done about the national debt. We can't just ignore it.

I'm also happy for rich people to pay taxes, but they've been finding loopholes for decades and not a single govt. has done anything about it, so I don't hold out too much hope.
Wealth inequality is at the heart of pretty much every problem you can think of. Something like 80 people hold half the worlds wealth. It's a problem that gets a little bit worse every second that passes on the clock. It's why there isnt enough money to go round. Trillions upon trillions getting tucked away into offshore accounts, not moving round the system, not having any tax paid on it just growing and growing. Money isnt infinite, theres only so much of it to go round and a handful of people have a ridiculous share of it.

When anyone comes along to try and rebalance it, if only a little, they are labelled terrorist socialists who want to give handouts to everyone. Who by? The handful of people who own almost all major media outlets who report this stuff. And people on low incomes are conned into thinking it's the Asian guy down the road who is also struggling to make ends meet that's the problem, rather than the guy with billions and more who wont even pay the same percentage tax as hard working low income families.

What's Britain and Americas response? Vote in a billionaire who immediately gives huge more tax breaks to himself and wealthy friends and his fuzzy haired lap dog because they hate jonny foreigner just like we told you to. They bomb the fek out of the middle east, start illegal wars and then rile everyone up into a racist frenzy when theres any retaliation.

People have been tricked into thinking there are only 2 options. Capitalism in its current form or socialism. Why cant we have a fairer capitalism where rich people are still rich and lazy people are still poor, but everyone pays their fair share?

Democracy is dead. We live in a plutocracy now and the turkeys keep voting for more and more of it. Its utter madness.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by NvH » Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:57 am

Democracy isn't dead. It's just the losing side has become much nastier in recent times. It's true that we don't directly elect our leader in this country, but that has always been the case (just as well for Labour otherwise they'd have suffered an even worse defeat). But you know who is taking a dump on democracy? Those who ignore the will of the British people when it comes to Brexit. I voted remain but I'm mature enough to accept defeat and move on with my life.

In the election last month, for a change, those in some poorer constituencies voted Conservative and of course the liberal elite called them stupid for doing so. I didn't see them sneering when these same people voted for Labour time and again without ever experiencing any change in the fortunes of their locale. I'm not saying that voting Conservative is going to help those in deprived areas, but surely it's worth a try when a century of voting Labour has made no difference to them whatsoever? Either way, calling the very voters you want to win back "stupid", is an extremely dumb way of going about things.

What you say about 80 people holding 50% of the world's wealth may or may not be true (forgive me for being sceptical but you did post a graph that suggested the Conservatives borrowed more in 8 years than Labour in 33, which simply wasn't true), but the super rich are so far removed from my life as to be immaterial.

But what was Corbyn actually going to do about that? I didn't see any clear policy. These multinational corporations are far too clever, certainly far too smart for a man who could only achieve two E grades at A-level (how dumb do you have to be to get those grades?!). What I saw from Corbyn was the politics of envy, wanting to increase the income tax on those earning £80k a year. Now £80k is a lot of money for a man with no children like me, but for someone with 4 or 5 kids, that money doesn't go very far. You aren't punishing the superrich by stealing from the middle class, you're just pissing off a fair chunk of the population.

THen you have the idea in the pipeline to reduce the threshold of inheritance tax to £125,000. How many houses are worth less than that these days? Not many. And I resent having to pay tax on income that my parents have already paid tax on, it's a joke. No wonder so many of us are careful with our money so we don't have to pay any inheritance tax at all.

As for an illegal war, I assume you're talking about Iraq? I was/am against the war but it wasn't actually illegal for a number of reasons. Firstly, any international law has to be painstakingly incorporated into our legal system (like when we joined the EEC - you'll notice that a lot of our legislation comes direct from Europe). This hasn't happened with international law, so therefore such things carry no weight. But even if they did, Saddam broke almost every single one of his terms of surrender in 1991, making the war legal, even if it was a catastrophic decision. Saddam wasn't really the enemy because he didn't care for Islamic fundamentalism.

Now, I have no problem with people fighting back of course. If we bomb Iraq, then of course our soldiers and pilots are putting themselves in danger. What I do have a problem with is people bombing London and pretending they're doing it in response to Iraq. How many of the 7/7 bombers were Iraqi? What about those two guys who beheaded Lee Rigby? None of them were from Iraq, so why are they fighting against us? It's like me beheading a Muslim because in their countries they don't always treat atheists too well.

And they wonder why some people question whether they're truly British! And just to hammer home my point about this not being "retaliation", how do you explain the disgraceful attack at Bataclan? Or the murder of journalists at Charlie Hebdo? France did not take part in the Iraq war. How many attacks does it take before people realise there is a serious problem with Islam? It isn't geopolitics (something which many of the perpetrators would know next to nothing about) that is causing it, it's the religion itself and the fact a fair % of Muslims follow the Koran literally. Islam is effectively at the same stage Christianity was during the Crusades.

But if we're going down the racism route, just take a look at how Jewish members of the Labour party have been treated. Ask Luciana Berger why she felt the need to join the Lib Dems instead.

Finally, to call Boris Johnson a Trump puppet is rather silly. Johnson is far better educated than Trump and a genuine conservative. He may sound like a bumbling fool sometimes but if you'd ever read his articles in the Spectator you'd see he has a strong intellect. Trump doesn't even compare, he's just a populist who has spent most of his life outside politics and holds no strong convictions as far as I can tell.

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